by gumby 34 Replies latest watchtower bible
Well, all I can say is that I for one looked into the bible a lot more after I started to question the Org than I ever did as an active dub. As soon as I realized I didnt know as much as I thought about the bible I looked at it from a whole other perspective.
Tor
I know FAR more about the Bible now than I did as a pioneer, MS and yer basic born-in-da-truth dub.
Me too Fark. I took a different path to do it than you did if I remember correct. I went to church and you didn't, because I'm a dummer idiot than you are. I did however at the time, see a different side of the bible I hadn't seen before as a dub. The message was different . The message was what I had heard Christendom preaching my whole life. Salvation in christ through his blood alone. I wondered what else Christendom had correct.
It took me 7 years after leaving dubdom to find you bastards here who pointed me in a direction I hadn't considered before. I saw and read information I hadn't ever heard of before......ever. It wasn't this place that robbed me of my religion......they only shared it and I checked it out. It wasn't "their" words. It was facts they shared that I found were true. And you my man.....by your humour and wit, and reasoning and writing ability, helped me see things in a reasonable manner that started me on quite the 'road trip'. Thanks for being you Fark ,and helping me and others by sharing how you see things and sharing what you have learned through the years.
Gumby
Skip to end of this post for synopsis if you want to skip this long boring post. I didn't plan it that way, but....you know me!!!
It is rather interesting when you take the Bible into your own hands and start reading it first hand for yourself and getting beyond the WTS. I mean "beyond" because they basically got your study schedule mapped out if you did what they expect, like pre-study for all the meetings and everything. If you've got a job and family there is not a lot of time for in-depth extra "personal study" even though they encourage it in word, but dread it.
It was only when I began to pioneer at around the 8th and 9th grade that I really got interested in the "reality" of the beliefs and then the Bible "became my own" personal belief system beyond the WTS, though they started that direction. Later on that would backfire on the WTS when I started finding contradiction between what they said and what the Bible said. But the research into secular references for me is I think different than more ex-dubs. I tended to take just the opposite from secular references when applied to the Bible than most who I think tend to put the Bible into less of a "sacred"/"God's word" category. I like relating this case in point:
"70 years begins when Jerusalem was desolated." That was drummed into the J-dub constantly because it was connected with 1914 and 607BCE. I accepted the 70 years was accurate because the Bible certainly referenced it and I remember the WTS quoting Josephus as supporting the understanding that the 70 years was a literal period of time following the fall of Jerusalem. Plus in my first research looks into chronology, even Josephus noted there were 70 years from the "conflagration" (common reference to destruction of first temple) until the 1st of Cyrus. So I figured that was a Biblical fact, though contested.
All was well until the WTS came out with the Insight Book and a reference to an astronomical text, the "Strm. Kambyses 400" wherein they noted two ecilpses occurring the same year that could scientifically date year 7 of Kambyses in 523BCE. That was there and I wanted to check it out once I believed the Bible actually dated the 70 weeks prophecy beginning with the 1st of Cyrus when the "word went forth to rebuild Jerusalem". That is, I immediately began to contradict the WTS' chronology which claimed the 70 weeks began with Nehemiah's rebuilding the wall. BUT...my new dates were still off. I thought that if 455BCE was the 1st of Cyrus, then I just knew from the Bible that Jerusalem must have fallen 70 years earlier in 525BCE. To me that was the true Biblical date for the fall of Jerusalem with no options.
But when I checked out the actual astronomy of the SK400 and discovered the second ecilpse event was a total miss for 523BCE, I thought the references would PROVE that 525BCE was year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar and that the references were really to "year 7" of Nebuchadnezzar in 537BCE. But when I tried to match it up, it didn't work. I tried matching it up with other kings as well, but no luck. Finally I simply charted every similar eclipse event from 600BCE to 500BCE to see what that gave me and I discovered the precise match-up of the eclipses by timing interval between the two to match 541BCE. I was startled but it still didn't help me. It was four years too early. I tried to make it work with co-rulerships and double-references to the reign and what not, but it just didn't. Here was this text dating year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar in 541BCE which dated the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE, but it was just "wrong" because I KNEW that there was no choice. For the Bible to be true, Jerusalem had to fall in 525BCE, 70 years before 455BCE. It was that simple! I astronomical text was 4 years off.... I didn't know why?
But the research exercises had begun. I became more aware of ancient history and how it impacted upon the Bible and didn't know what to make of the missed astronomical reference. So I didn't lose faith in the Bible but basically gave up trying to match the astronomical text to the Bible. And then, something happened laer on! I discovered Jeremiah 52:30! Only after having become familiar enough with the reign of Nebuchadnezzar and this part of the Bible's history did this scripture now stand out! That is, I hadn't really paid attention to the LAST DEPORTATION occurring in the 23rd year! FOUR YEARS after the fall of Jerusalem! Oops! Did this mean that there were still people in Jerusalem after its fall?
The WTS, again, had deceived us! Later research showed the Jews that ran down to Egypt actually returned to Jerusalem before being deported to Babylon and these of the last deportation were the few "reamining ones from the sword" from Egypt who were deported. This was much, much later confirmed by Josephus, but I hadn't gotten to that reference at the time. At any rate, SUDDENLY there was an amazing match-up of this previously contradictory astromical text that provided absolute dating to 541BCE for year 7 of Nebuchadnezzar. Why? Because if the 70 years didn't begin until the land was actually empty, and it was not completely empty until the last of the Jewish nation were deported and that did not happen until year 23, then 525BCE was really year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. That meant that Jerusalem must have fallen 4 years earlier in 529BCE. In that case, year 7 fell in 541BCE, the same date that's in the astronomical text!!!
So to make a long story longer...(duhhhhh!) what happened was that BIBLE RESEARCH IMPROVED AND STRENGTHENED MY CRITICAL BIBLICAL KNOWLEDGE instead of visa versa! But it still contradicted what the witnesses were teaching.
But it was stil a great moment for me, having rather "blind faith" in the Bible and believing it must be true and looking for some "evidence" of that via science, astronomy and archaeology, to find that I was able to independently date the fall of Jerusalem correctly in 529BCE and the only reason that date didn't match the Biblical date of 525BCE was because I had been taught incorrectly by the WTS!!
So I learned a very good lesson when it comes to research, and that is, many "contradictions" between what is found in secular references and the Bible, can sometimes be due to not fully understanding either the Bible's own reference or somehow misinterpreting the secular reference. So before dismissing the two as contradictory, you have to really, really, really look close! And when you do, many times the problem is resolved and you find great enlignmentment from that.
(Just one more, one more!!) One other instance where this occurred was in doing the critical timeline of the Divided Kingdom. I knew the date of the Exodus from the jubilee cycles was 1386BCE and thus the 4th of Solomon and the first temple was 906BCE. I couldn't change that. But when I did the critical chronology timeline, king by king, co-rulership by co-rulership, I had an overlap!!! The beginning of Rehoboam's reign overlapped the end of Solomon's reign. Oops!!! What is one to do? Presume a co-rulership? Perhaps, but can it be confirmed? YES. Only by needing to prove there was a co-rulership did I look even closer at the Biblical reference and was able to confirm that indeed, at the invasion of Shishak Rehoboam was still ruling over all 12 tribes!! So it worked out.
Bottom line is, I think some people loose faith in the Bible if they take a casual attitude about the details there and don't aggressive try to work out seeming discrepancies or simply make presumptions of error or invention. When you do, and the issues are resolved, then your faith in the Bible grows, your respect for secular references and ancient archaeology grows, but your trust in modern scholars, both on the witnesses side as well as the "scholastic" side takes a nose dive, because both match each other in bias and ineptitude oftentimes.
Blind faith is great but it's nice to be able to defend yourself scholastically from the archaeological and scientific points of view when it comes to what is in the Bible; and that takes a lot of time and a lot of research, but for me, it has paid off. Thanks to secular research I have MORE faith in the Bible than ever before. Unfortunately, with so much jive and bias out there, I think many others experience just the opposite, they tend to find their faith challenged by casual secular research.
My advice is to DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. That is, get behind the commentators and see what opposing opinions are saying and investigate everything as much as possible. Some people don't have that much time. But when you do, the Bible is able to maintain its credibility with little problems. And that's great. To be able to leave the Christendom to become a witness is a step forward. But to be able to them leave the witnesses and still maintain your faith in the Bible is even better! Being able to challenge Biblical naysayers with their own research, is the cherry on top of the icing on top of the cake!
JC
(P.S. Why are my posts so loooong! Why couldn't I have just said: "Secular research has helped correct and improve some false Biblical facts I'd inherited from the WTS, so it's been a great experience for me doing research." DUUHHHHHHHHHHH!) Every now and then I think there must be something seriously wrong with me! I know that's difficult for many of you to believe out there, but there comes a time for facing reality, guys!!!)
JCanon,
: Why are my posts so loooong!
Because if you had anything truthful and important to say, you could have said it in a sentence or two. You know, like Jesus did.
But you don't, so therefore you windbag to obscure the fact that you have nothing truthful or important to say.
Farkel
you windbag to obscure the fact that you have nothing truthful or important to say.
Canon,
I gotta agree with the above statement.
You seem to have a clever mind, good writing ability, and a kind manner about you..........but you goota put those qualities to use in a better way wheras you can help others. Right now.....your not helping anyone that I'm aware of. Write about factual things for a change.....even though factual things are boring to people who like fairytales......you'll find reality is the real truth and the real truth can be intresting too.
Gumby
