by jst2laws 21 Replies latest watchtower bible
LittleToe,
Steve:Agreed. Ultimately there is little to fear.I knew you would be OK. I know you are not the Bible thumbing 'literalist' type Christian. Maybe we will see each other again in May
OHappyDay,
JCanonInteresting that "Yahweh" thought of himself as being the "husbandly owner" of the Jewish nation...
I'm sure a little research on your part will show this is not unique to the "Jewish nation" or its Yahwist believers. Jst2laws
Steve:
Maybe we will see each other again in May
That would be cool
Please send my love to the family.
(I'm a Newbie-Lurker....who wants this post in my Post History/ great thread, btw!)
I thought I'd throw is a slightly different slant on the whole name of God... here goes
Exodus 6:3
NKJV: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Latin Vulgate: qui apparui Abraham Isaac et Iacob in Deo omnipotente et nomen meum Adonai non indicavi eis
Here, we have a clear understanding that God Almighty [in red] appears as Deo which translates to "God". We see then [bold black] that Adonai is given to the name Jehovah. In hebrew God's name is JHWH which when translated means the "eternal one".
Exodus 3:14 "I AM hath sent me unto you" we know what it means as reference to his name and how the name came about, namely JHWH [which when pronounced is not Jahweh but more like Agh-Yah]. "I AM" not only is a statement of the present tense it cannot age and become past tense [I WAS for example] or get ahead of us and be future tense [I WILL BE as an example] therefore it is eternal in it's definition as well as the name God wanted to be known by at that time -- interesting the way a translation actually fits it's original meaning here on more than one level.
Back to the point...
Isaiah 24:6
NKJV: Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH [is] everlasting strength:
Latin Vulgate: sperastis in Domino in saeculis aeternis in Domino Deo forti in perpetuum
Now the NKJV has differed from the Latin and uses Jehovah instead of God where Deo is found. I can search more but I'm sure this is a tried and trusted method that can be disclaimed if one disbelieves the validity of the source. The name Jehovah was injected into the bible by a Catholic Priest from Latin Vulgate in 1270. This gives us another catch 22 issue. Either there was an error in the translation and it was misplaced in that line [which makes it work of a fallible man who may have made more errors] or it was not supposed to have been done whereby someone took on the responsibility of assuming that name for us and still being fallible made an arroneous entry. Either way, in straight translation it has been modified to read more than it should.
As if the word within the NWT has not ben discredited enough, think on this:
1. NWT First Edition [1950] with reference to Exodus 3:14 & John 8:58 [remembering my statement earlier of the present tense of I AM]
Notations of Correction on the appropriate pages read "Because of the 'perfect indefinite tense' in the Greek, [Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58], "I AM" should read "I have been".
This was kept in for 15 years and then removed when pointed out that the perfect indefinite tense does not exist What reason was there for the statement and what does this say for the Greek Scholars at Bethel? Liars or inadequate? You decide.
2. 125 years prior to the arrival of Jesus of Nazareth were a group of scholars known as the "70 scholars". Among other things they translated the name of God as spoken to Moses at the burning bush into Greek as "I AM".
Jesus of Nazareth accepted and used these translations in his teachings. He HIMSELF accepted this translation. So we know that this was correct for both Jesus and his Apostles / Disciples.
And on a final note,
What did Jesus mean in John 8:58 when he said "... before Abraham came to existence (before Abraham was), I am."
Then in :59 the Jews wanted to stone him. Stoning usually occurs when you go against God in such cases as blasphemy. Calling himself a servant of God is not blasphemy. Even calling himself "a god" as did many of the rulers of the time, wasn't blasphemous in the eyes of the Jews so what did he mean when he made that statement and was in the midst of an angry mob about to stone him?
Nick
OK, where shall we begin?
Yhwh doesn't mean "the Eternal One".
Basically, in the Bible Yhwh is not a noun meaning something, but a name identifying someone, i.e. a god among others (polytheism).
Any "meaning" at this stage belongs not to semantics, but to etymology: among the best yet uncertain candidates, a designation for Baal meaning, for instance, "He blows" (?).
Exodus 3 is a late theological explanation for "Yhwh" at a later stage when Yhwh has become "God" in Judaism (monotheism), so that he actually doesn't need a name anymore. This explanation is based on a pun (nothing more) with the verb hyh, "to be". The I am involved in this pun (Heb. ehyeh, not yhwh) is in "imperfect tense", which can be present AND future (I will be). It's a commentary on the first promise I will be with you (ehyeh immâkh, v. 12). The complete formula ehyeh asher ehyeh, I am / will be who / what / because I am / will be, is an ambiguous expression of the mystery of God...
So much for now, cause I have to go, but I'll be back
Yhwh doesn't mean "the Eternal One".
Let me rephrase that. It "translates to 'eternal one' " YHWH is a tetragram not a pun. The Hewbrew language is richer than ours - you have to try to see what is meant by that. When you say 'I am' it is in the present tense which is an eternal tense so to speak it has no end. We are always in the present. Grammatical gymnastics with Hebrew is not my strong point but I do see the obvious pun in that sense.
Tetragram: [from the greek "tetra' four and "gramma" letter].
Pun: A play on words, sometimes on different senses of the same word and sometimes on the similar sense or sound of different words.
I cannot see where you get your hebrew pun explanation other than using western alphabet to explain away a hebrew text based on western alphabet puns?
My explanation stands as far as I can see with exception to my definition being misworded.
Question: Do you find anything else in my post wrong?
Show me scriptural examples where the pun is in play through the process of it's adoption through to it's usage. If you can state that there is a pun it must first have been conceived and used as such with a statement to that effect. I don't know of anywhere that the bible does this.
The ball is in your court :o)
Nick
Isn't "eternal one" something like Hebrew 'wlm? We just had a discussion on that in this folder recently.
Left Field: I read your two last posts three times and I'm afraid I don't really understand what you mean to say. I guess my Frenchman's English is reaching its limits...
Let me, however, try to rephrase what I meant with "pun". I was only referring to Exodus 3:12-16 as an almost unique attempt to give a new theological meaning to the old name Yhwh.
For centuries, Yhwh had been used as the name of Israel's main god (lower case intended), the original etymology of which had been lost (as is the case for most proper names).
With the postexilic shift to monotheism (Isaiah 40--55), Yhwh becomes the Only God. He doesn't need a name anymore to be distinguished from other gods, for in monotheism there are NO other gods.
In this new monotheistic context, Yhwh becomes a quite embarrassing inheritance from the old Israelite polytheism. It will eventually be declared unpronounceable (which it was not before), and at the same time needs to be explained as a written reference to "God". So inventing a new meaning for it becomes necessary.
This the author of Exodus 3 does by forging an original pun on the name Yhwh (which is basically meaningless to him). He chooses to relate it to the Hebrew root hyh ("to be"), in the first person of qal imperfect 'hyh ('ehyeh). Whether this happens or not to agree with the actual etymology of the name is another matter.
(1) Interpreting the pun on yhwh in Exodus 3 as meaning "the Eternal One" and (2) applying this interpretation to every occurrence of yhwh in the OT were the two mistakes made by French Protestant translators after Calvin's relative Olivétan. This led to absurd translations such as in Genesis 21:33:
"He called on the name of the Eternal, God of eternity."
When the Hebrew reads:
"He called on the name of Yhwh El `olam"
(There is absolutely no linguistical connection between Yhwh and `olam, only the latter meaning "eternity").
Thanks for the clarity. I agree that there have been eroneous translations with regards to His name and it evidently can be confusing -- me being confused and also [unintentionally] creating confusion.
I will take your definitions and apply them to the original and test this hypothesis and see it's results.
Thanks for the explanation and yes Leolaia I came across one of your posts that had much to say on names of gods etc. Very useful very insightful on both of your accounts Narkissos.
Nick
Narkissos and Leolaia,
I cannot recall if I have thanked you for the most interesting experience and research you bring to this board. I seldom miss reading your posts.
Narkissos,
An excellent explanation of the 'pun' connection. Many Biblical translators and researchers often miss the essential concept of a placing language within its social framework, often translating mechanically rather then given the language the social nuances it deserves. Humor and the Middle Eastern fascination with word play ( witness the ancient Arab Poets ) is often the first casualty of translation.
Thank you for the information - HS
