A very good point, Kenneson!
Contradiction or new light ?
by Motema Bolingo 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Narkissos
On the intercession of angels:
Tobit 12:11ff:
"I will now declare the whole truth to you and will conceal nothing from you. Already I have declared it to you when I said, 'It is good to conceal the secret of a king, but to reveal with due honor the works of God.' So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead. And that time when you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner to go and bury the dead, I was sent to you to test you. And at the same time God sent me to heal you and Sarah your daughter-in-law. I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord."
Revelation 8:3f:Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
And perhaps Matthew 18:10:
Take care that you do not despise one of these little ones; for, I tell you, in heaven their angels continually see the face of my Father in heaven.
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ozziepost
I would think that the point the WT writer was trying to make was this:
Since we are told the names of just two angels, how would it be possible to address our prayers to an angel by name? Clearly it wouldn't be possible, for we don't know them by name. Thus, we would not be able to get our prayers to God through an angel.
I hasten to add that I distance myself from any of this teaching, but just from a WTS perspective, I think that there's nothing new here.
Cheers, Ozzie
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Leolaia
Since Michael was looked upon as the prince of the Jewish nation, who was the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece? Were these also angels? (Dan. 10:13, 20)
Yes. The "prince of Persia" would probably have referred to the god worshipped by the Persians as their own principal deity, i.e. Ahura Mazda. I'm not sure who the Greeks regarded as their own national protective deity. It is important to understand that in ancient Canaan and Phoenicia, the king was viewed as co-regent of the patron god who rules from heaven, and conflicts on earth are viewed as reflections of conflicts in heaven. In Canaanite mythology, the father god El begat seventy sons (cf. KTU 1.4 vi 46 , "the seventy sons of Asherah," El's consort), and in the OT we find that El assigns one god to each nation as their patron deity, Yahweh inheriting Israel:
"When Elyon (an epithet of El) apportioned the nations, when he divided mankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God (Hebrew bene 'el or bene 'elohim). Yahweh's portion was with his people, Jacob his share of inheritance." (Deuteronomy 32:8-9)
That is why there are seventy nations listed in Genesis 10, one nation for each god. The gods worshipped by the pagans as national deities were thus viewed as real, as among of "sons of God"; Hebrew bene 'el and bene 'elohim refer to the divine members of God's heavenly court who are otherwise called "council of El", "gods", "holy ones", "the council of holy ones in heaven", "the sons of Elyon", "the stars of El", a notion borrowed from the Canaanite idea that the seventy sons of El comprise the "divine assembly" (cf. Job 1:6, 2:1, 15:8-15, 38:7, 41:25; Psalm 29:1, 82:1-8, 89:5-10; Isaiah 14:13; compare 1 Kings 22:1-18). Compare these cited texts with the Baal Epic:
"[Yamm's messengers] set their faces towards the divine mountain, towards the meeting of the council. Now the gods were sitting to eat, the holy ones to dine....There is no house for Baal like the gods, nor a court like the sons of Asherah, the dwelling of El, the shelter for his sons....Asherah went home to the court of El. She came before the divine council, and spoke of her plan to the gods, her children...The Beloved came up and insulted me, he arose and spat on me in the midst of the council of the sons of El" (KTU 1.2 i 20-22; 1.3 v 36-40; 1.4 iii 12-14).
Now consider the conflict between Yahweh and Chemosh, which was realized in the earthly conflict between the Israelites and the Moabites. The old polytheistic notion of the different gods establishing the borders between the nations can be found in Judges 11:23-24 where Jephthah says:
"Now since Yahweh, the god of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever Yahweh our God has given us, we will possess." (Judges 11:23-24)
Thus when Moab is defeated in war, the Israelites say that "Chemosh goes into exile" (Jeremiah 48:7), while the Moabites viewed their own political fortunes as dictated by their god Chemosh as well: "Omri was the king of Israel, and he oppressed Moab for many days, for Chemosh was angry with his own land.... And Chemosh said to me , 'Go take Nebo from Israel!' And I went in the night and fought against it from break of dawn until noon, and I took it, and I killed its whole population ... and from there I took the vessels of Yahweh and hauled them before the face of Chemosh" (King Mesha Stele, COS 2.23, lines 5-6, 14-18).
Moreover, when Israel "serves gods that were no part of their heritage" (Deuteronomy 29:24-27 ), Yahweh becomes jealous that "they have forsaken me and worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites" (1 Kings 11:33), instead of following the god allotted to their nation. That is also why Ezekiel and the other prophets explain Israel's destruction by the Assyrians and Judah's destruction by the Babylonians as the result of their religious "apostasy" -- by turning to the gods of other nations, Yahweh abandoned his political support and left them defenseless to the forces of the Assyrians and Babylonians.
When Judaism became monotheistic, this notion was adjusted so that each nation had their own guardian angel (cf. Daniel 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1; Sirach 17:17). Thus we read in the Targum Ps.-Jonathan that "when he [i.e. God] divided alphabets and tongues to the sons of men [at the Tower of Babel], he cast lots with 70 angels, the princes of the nations, who established the borders of the peoples." This is obviously based on Deuteronomy 32:8-9, but it reinterprets the "sons of God" as referring to angels, the "princes of the nations". This development was paralleled by the idea that the "sons of God" who came to earth and intermarried with the daughters of men in Genesis 6:1-4 were, in fact, angels (cf. 1 Enoch 10:1-12, 12:4, 15:3-7; Jude 6; 2 Peter 2:4). The gods worshipped by the other nations were thus viewed as renegade angels, or more specifically demons, since they receive worship which should be reserved for God alone. They thus form the supernatural Powers and Principalities alluded in sub-Pauline literature who rule the world (Colossians 1:15-16, 2:14-15; Ephesians 1:20-21; 1 Peter 3:21-22), and Satan is called "the prince of this world" according to John 16:11, implying that one of these angelic "princes" has dominion over the whole world. Revelation 12-13, by incorporating an old conflict myth from the repertoire of Baal and Yahweh, dramatizes the mythology by explaining how this happened: the revolt in heaven, how Michael led the military fight against the renegade angels, how the earth came under their political influence, and how the Roman Empire in particular was led by the Devil and involves the worship of him and his Caesars. This late conception has deep roots in traditional Canaanite mythology.
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XQsThaiPoes
The Greeks or athenian league had Athena but she is female she replaced posidon as patron of the city.
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Leolaia
Yes, the city-states had their own patron deities. But I'm speaking more of the Hellenistic period. In the context of Daniel, the obvious candidate for the "prince of Greece" would be Zeus of Olympus because it was Antiochus Epiphanes' installation of an idol to this god in the Temple of Jerusalem in 168 BC (and accompanying cessation of traditional Temple worship) which is referred to in Daniel 9:27, 11:31 (cf. 1 Maccabees 1:54; 2 Maccabees 6:1-3). This actually fits rather nicely because Zeus was a storm-god with a similar mythology to Baal in the case of the Phoenicians and Canaanites, and Yahweh in the case of the Israelites and Jews. Zeus fought the chaos monster Typhon on Mount Casius (Apollodorus Bibl. I 5.3.7; Iliad 2.782f; Hesiod, Theogony, 820f), which is the exact same Mount Zaphon in Syria where Baal fought the monsters Yamm and Mot (cf. KTU 1.1 V 5; 1.6 VI 1-2, 12-13, 33-35), and also poetically where Yahweh has his "Mount of Assembly" (cf. Isaiah 14:13-14; compare Psalm 48:1-3; Job 26:7, 37:22), a "Mount of Assembly" equivalent of Mount Olympus ruled by Zeus.
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XQsThaiPoes
I may be wrong but there was no Greece nation wise until Alexander they we weak and loose sort of like how the united states was until the civil war.
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Leolaia
Yes, but this whole section of Daniel is discussing the Seleucid and Ptolemy kings who followed Alexander (i.e. the King of the North, and the King of the South), and giving a blow-by-blow account of the events leading up to Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC.
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lurk
Since we are told the names of just two angels, how would it be possible to address our prayers to an angel by name? Clearly it wouldn't be possible, for we don't know them by name. Thus, we would not be able to get our prayers to God through an angel.
ozzie
they could be listening .you dont have to know someones there to be overheard.
i really dont like the idea of angles or god seeing everyhting you do.there must be some real ewwwwww moments espacially in bathrooms.
archangle gabriel must have seen some sights
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Left_Field
There is only one way that you can be hard through prayer and that IS by using a name and ONLY by using
a name.Jusus Christ. For only through his name will we reach the Father.
Now, should I go on to explain WHY Jesus Christ is not an angel of any sort?
Shall I show you that he is God? Would you believe me if I should you scirpurally right here that I can show you this. Would you accept the fact that without Jesus Christ you perish? First I would have to prpove the importance of accepting such a thing and then explain what could be gained by the devil himself if he were to convince someone of the opposite, that Jesus was just an angel and not necessary to use His name when you pray.
before I try to explain anything here is a uestion for you to answer yourself.
Open your "Knowledge That Leads To Everlasting Life" book.
Chapter 5 "Whose Worship Does God Accept" page 49 paragraph 14 where is says
"angel worship :
1 offends God
2 is unacceptable
3 contaminates true worship
4 is idolatry.
Then go to your charter. 1945 Yearbook. Don't think because it is an old book it is not acceptible evidence. As you will notice over the years a lot of thought has gone into showing and hiding this fact which means that minds worked on it's validity. If it were a genuine prophetic statement it would not need to be recitified. If it were of God's will it would have been left in but it contaminated the worship of God as defined by their description of Jesus Christ. If, however they said Jesus Christ was God also it would make perfect sense. Alas, they added this statement to fullfil a prophecy of their own and that was to make them God's Organisation by association.
Yearbook 1945 for the year of 1944, page 32 quote
"public Christian worship of Almighty God and Jesus Christ"
This would make it contaminated worship.
This is irrefutable evidence that WTS publically claimed to worship Jehovah God and Jesus Christ.
So I ask you. Is Jehovah God and Jesus Christ the same person? Are they of the same personality? Are the two from the one and are of different casts of the same? By praying to the Son do you not pray to God Almighty?
If you answer is no then you are, by the words of the WTS Charter, the law of God, quoted from your own publication the "Knowledge" book is being broken every time you cite Jesus' name in prayer because of WHOM you claim he is. Anything in heaven that is not God himself is under Him no matter how high the position.
Any entity in heaven that is not God is a secondary entity which makes it a seperate entity of angelic proportion.
An angel above all other angels is still an angel. Angel worship is against God's law.
Next. I'm sorry but you think that was a pill to swallow? Wait till I get to the next one...
Daniel 10:13 talks about Michael being one of many chief princes.
Michael has peers in his realm. Is Jesus unique?
Are there others like Jesus Christ? then we must take note of Daniel 10:13 because there is more...
There is only one Archangel -- namely Michael? This scripture not only proves to show he isn't the only one but that it actually states, therefore not leaving it to suggestion, that there are others like him. So, with that logic Jesus Christ could not be either unique on one argument or Michael or any OTHER archangel.
Jude 9 shows Michael disputing with the devil. Michael did not dare pronounce judgement against the devil or rebuke him. If he had the power would he not have?
Did Jesus rebuke the devil? Yes he did!
So, is the identity of Jesus still Michael and his office in heaven that of an Archangel? What about any sort of highest of the highest upon the very utmost high angels?
The dilemma is this. Either the Charter is wrong when it quoted Jesus Christ as an entity to pray to or it was right.
If it was wrong then it has failed at being in a holy and righteous place with God and it did not fulfill it's self proclaimed prophecy claim of 1914 which it MUST in order to be God's organisation based on it's very own words.
If the claim to prayer to Jesus Christ is correct then it must change it's views on WHO Jesus Christ is and claim Jesus Christ is God Almighty [Father Son Holy Spirit then becomes the next topic of discussion for discovery]. Otherwise it is praying to the Almighty God and at the very best another god if not an extremely high positioned angel. Both are wrong to pray to.
I leave this food for thought unless I get ripped a new one by someone who finds what I say disturbing and demonic which I cannot see being the case because I have used WTS writings and the Bible to prove my case.
Left_Field