welcome Nick!
best wishes
Lass
New to the forum and willing to discuss everything with you
by Left_Field 23 Replies latest jw friends
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family_man
Nick,
Welcome. That is a good inroduction - I wish you success with your children...
I saw your response on my other post. Thanks for the link. I am interested in hearing the claim about the NWT written or influenced by spiritism - I've heard this presented in a different way.
FM
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blacksheep
Welcome Nick! Thanks for sharing your story.
I wouldn't get to hung up on the "demonic" teachings/books, whatever that you believed the society pushed. As most of us here have discovered, they are a cult developed and perpetrated by imperfect and insecure people, not really at all different from other cults.
They DO put a lot of stock in "demonic" origins, which you might be carrying over. But in time, you'll see the big picture. It doesn't matter, for example, that they can try to prove birthdays and Chritmas had "Satanic/demonic" origins. What matters is how you relate to people, and celebrate life, today. You have two beautiful children: put things in their persepective once in a while, and you'll be okay...
Look forward to more of your posts.
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Left_Field
Hi family_man thanks for ther welcome... and glad I had something useful for you with the link. And thanks for the continued welcomes :o) As for the spiritism within the WTS doctrine it runs along these lines [I was corrected with my mis-representation of NWT by Alan -- thanks again Alan]. In 1923 a catholic priest [ Johannes Greber ] became intereted in communicating with spirit beings. These beings often spoke with him through his wife, a spirit medium and informed him that the Bible was full of errors. He was a known spiritist and he authored "Communication with the spirit world of God". In this book he claims that spirits helped him translate the New Testament and he claimed that the words, as they were being translated, passed before his eyes. He goes on to talk about who Christ was, by claiming he was one of Gods many sons etc etc [ see my previous post for more and the F. Franz statement in court ]. This basically makes Greber an accultist. and If you work with one to help with the writings of your own doctrine then you are as much as occultist by association as the occultist helping you. Here's a link to associations of the word occultist to give a broader meaning of the word in today's modern terminology: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/List%20of%20occultists 1 John 4:1 Warns about false prophets as they are in the world. We know that Greber is an occultist [even though he wasn't proved to belong to an occult group he practiced that very art that would be often attempted but failed by so many wannabes]. , issue of The Watchtower magazine contained nearly a full page on Greber and his Spiritism. The Watchtower admits. "Very plainly the spirits in which ex-priest Greber believes helped him in his translation." (Watchtower 2/15/1956) Yet, despite the knowledge that Greber was a spiritist, the Society continued to cite him as a authority in support of its translation of John 1:1 (see the 1961 edition of the New World Translation).
So why did they quote him? Because they could find no one else that would render John 1:1 the way their own translation did.
Books where Greber is quoted by the Watchtower.
AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING Page 1669 THE WORD
AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING Page 1134 MEMORIAL TOMBS
MAKE SURE OF ALL THINGS Page 489 "A GOD"
THE WATCHTOWER Page 554 THE WORD
THE WATCHTOWER Page 640 NO RESURRECTION
THE WATCHTOWER Page 231 NO RESURRECTION
THE WORD Page 5 "A GOD"
They actually can claim "Without wresting Greek grammar, a translator can render ...Thus the translation by Johannes Greber (1937) renders these verses ...Compare the New World Translation." (Watchtower, October 15, 1975, p. 640).
Examples: "Similar is the reading of a former Roman Catholic priest-: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. "' Watchtower, , p. 544; "The Word"--Who Is He? According to John, 1963 ed., p. 5.
Many WT issues claimed Johannes Greber's Bible was, "Based on the Oldest Manuscripts." That speaks of approval!
More approval "Modern translations and Greek grammar make the meaning clear..." Make Sure of All Things, 1965, p. 489. Again they were recommending Greber and his book, and as usual claiming to have the last word on Greek grammar.
Aid to Bible Understanding 1971 pp.1134 and 1669 "A translation by a former catholic priest. Johannes Greber (1937 ed.) renders the second appearance' a of the word "god" In the sentence as "a god." And The Four Gospels-A New Translation, by Professor Charles Cutler Torrey (second ed., 1947),
says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. When he was in the beginning with God all things were created through him: without him came no created thing into This Word or Logos was God's only direct creation, the only-begotten son of God, and evidently the close associate of God to whom God was speaking when he said: "Let us make man In our image, according to our likeness." (Gen. 1:26) Hence John continued, saying: "This one was in the beginning with God. All things came Into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." -John 1:2, 3.
How could the influence of demons be held up as a fine translation by anyone except those in the occult? The Watchtower does not call it a "paraphrase " but implies that it is the correct literal translation of the text.
WATCHTOWER, Oct.15 1975 They are still using Greber. Without wresting the Greek grammar, a translator can render Matthew 27:52, 53 in a way that suggests that a similar exposing of corpses resulted from the earthquake occurring at Jesus' death. Thus the translation by Johannes Greber (1937) renders these verses: "Tomb: were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city."-Compare the Translation.
THE WATCHTOWER - Insight on the News- the Watchtower is still using Greber to prove their doctrine. Referring to a Guatamalan earthquake that affected gravesites?"A report in the Bible, as translated by Johannes Greber, says that when Jesus died, "the earth quaked, and the rocks were shattered. Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed b y the place on their way back to the city." Hence, rather than a resurrection, as some Bible translations imply, there appears to have been merely an exposure of the dead to observers, as in . Matt. 27:51-53."(Watchtower April 15, 1976, p. 231)
What the Watchtower failed to tell its followers and hides from them is that Johannes Greber was a spiritist who translated the New Testament through his spirit-medium wife. According to Greber, the Lord's Prayer (Matt. 6:9-10) begins like this: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy spirit world come to us. Thy will be done in the beyond and on earth." (Greber p. 6), Greber's spiritism is condemned by God's Word in Deuteronomy 18:9-14, and many other places.
The Watchtower, on page 624 wrote, Since spiritism is condemned by God, it becomes obvious that a person appealing to spiritism for knowledge or help is not appealing to God. He is looking to a source opposed to God...' (WT Oct. 15 1977)
So if Spirits that lie helped Greber in his translation, and the WT promotes the same inspired text (as they used his), then what does this mean? This is not just a side issue but the issue; the nature of Christ.
Do we trust God's Book "translated" by a man who had Satan's influence? How good are these bibles?
Greber also influenced the WT in other areas - Jesus Christ is a created being, (Communication with the Spirit World p. 301-J.W?s "Aid to Bible Understanding "p. 918). Christ's body was not resurrected. (CSWp.385- J.W.?s "things in which It is Impossible For God to Lie" p. 355). Body of Jesus was dematerialized. (CSWp.385- J.W.?s "Time Is At Hand" p. 129).
You can no longer order Greber's New Testament from Johannes Greber Memorial Foundation, so you will have to personally check the WT organization. Personal cheque or credic card??
Regards,
Nick