Wasn't Saddam ousted for doing precisely this sort of thing?

by Simon 398 Replies latest social current

  • patio34
    patio34

    Unintended Irony?

    Who said this: "There are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq." This was Bush on Friday, just before apologizing for GIs torturing and humiliating Iraqis. And don't forget the recent mass graves* in Fallujah. (Buzzflash)

    http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/8565900.htm


    Posted on Sat, May. 01, 2004


    Year after Iraq combat declared over, mission uncertain
    ANALYSIS:Bush abandons his initial blueprint for rebuilding the country in an effort to bring stability.
    BY WARREN STROBEL
    KNIGHT RIDDER NEWSPAPERS

    WASHINGTON - One year ago today President Bush stood on the deck of the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln beneath a banner proclaiming "Mission Accomplished" and announced that major combat in Iraq had ended.

    A year later, his administration's plans to make Iraq a democratic model for the Middle East have collided with reality.

    After efforts to stabilize Iraq failed, Bush has been forced to make a series of policy reversals, ditching or modifying the initial blueprint for remaking the country.

    In quick succession, the White House has handed the United Nations the lead in selecting an interim government, moved more tanks and heavy armor into the country, and softened a harsh policy of excluding members of Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime from the new Iraq.

    In Fallujah, the administration has turned to a former general in Saddam's army to suppress a violent uprising against the U.S.-led military occupation. The general, wise to the symbols of power in Iraq, showed up in his old uniform. In the Shiite south, the administration has been unable to crush a ragtag militia led by renegade cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

    That restoring order, reviving a ravaged economy and replacing a brutal dictatorship with a democracy is proving to be harder and costlier than Bush and many of his advisers thought it would be is testimony to how little they thought -- and planned for -- what might go wrong.

    "There was no debate about the wisdom of going to war," said one senior administration official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "No discussion of pros and cons, of what might happen, no planning for the unexpected. It was just something we were going to do."

    White House spokesmen portray the changes as prudent course corrections as they grapple with mounting U.S. casualties and persistent instability in Iraq.

    Critics say they represent a grudging acknowledgement that the administration's strategy and planning were flawed and its tactics have been riddled with errors that have boxed Bush in and left him few good options.

    It didn't have to be this way, critics inside and outside the administration say. Top Bush administration officials ignored and even disparaged pre-invasion warnings from their military, intelligence and foreign policy professionals -- warnings that proved prescient.

    They instead pursued a course urged by Iraqi exiles and their allies in Washington, which envisioned a joyous welcome for U.S. troops and the quick installation of a pro-American government.

    "The administration's plan today is exactly what they rejected in the fall of 2002 because it wasn't ideologically compatible," said David Phillips, who was an adviser to an intensive State Department-led planning effort called "The Future of Iraq Project."

    The results of the project were ignored by Pentagon planners, said State Department officials and other participants.

    It's uncertain whether a good outcome is still possible in Iraq, where U.S. troops are battling insurgencies by Sunni and Shiite Muslims, and Iraqis' support for the U.S. presence is plummeting. A caretaker government, which will take over in 60 days with limited powers, has yet to be chosen.

    It also remains to be seen how far Bush is willing to go in correcting course.

    Members of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, including controversial Iraqi National Congress leader Ahmad Chalabi, are resisting the new approach and efforts by the U.N. envoy, Lakhdar Brahimi, to exclude them from the interim government.

    A senior administration official deeply involved in Iraq policy, asked to comment on the recent policy changes, replied: "I don't spend much time looking in the rearview mirror.

    "It runs into bumps in the road from time to time... but we have a plan," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

    Bush on Friday said, "A year ago I did give the speech from the carrier saying we had achieved an important objective, accomplished a mission, which was the removal of Saddam Hussein.

    "And as a result, there are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq. As a result, a friend of terror has been removed and now sits in a jail," the president said.

    . . . ..................


    The Associated Press
    contributed to this report.


    © 2004 Duluth News Tribune and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
    http://www.duluthsuperior.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    * "It was only a few months ago that the Iraqis unearthed the remains of their loved ones from Saddam's mass graves. Now they are burying the victims of American massacres in a soccer field."

    "I can't claim credit for this title that summarises the Iraqi tragedy. It belongs to "Umm Faisal" a lady from the Arabian Gulf area who coined it during a TV phone-in show on an Arab satellite network a few days ago. The Americans have substituted Saddam's mass graves with their own massacres of Iraqi civilians." . . . from http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/6436/

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    Oh, please, people. The fact that these atrocities were fillmed and as a result the perpetrators were court martialed, and their criminal acts were condemned by the leader of the US is more than enough proof that these people are NOT sanctioned by the US.

    Give it a REST.

  • Simon
    Simon

    IMPORTANT UPDATE

    It seems that there is a distinct possibility that the 'convenient' (for the US because it distracts attention) picture of the British doing this are FAKED

  • They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.
  • They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos.
  • They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq.
  • The 'prisoners' dont seem to be sweating or have any signs of injuries
  • The quality of the pictures is too good, not grainy
  • The faces of all the people have been carefully hidden
  • There is, of course, an investigation underway.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm

    However, more info is coming out about the US torture pics which makes it look like this was NOT a one off event by rogue, undisciplined troops but was instructed from above:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4880919/

  • got my forty homey?
    got my forty homey?

    How am I making myself look like an idiot. I grew up in the Lower East Side of Manhattan and the World Trade Center were a part of my daily life. I went up many times with my wife for dinner and night views of the city, took many of my family visiting from Puerto Rico to the top, and had many class trips to the World trade.

    I work for NYC transit and personally was at the Ground Zero site when we assisted firemen with buses and digging equipment. The people who did this to us do not care that 3000 persons died miserable deaths. They could care less if children were in the building or airplanes. The war in Iraq is not for oil, or weapons of mass destruction, it was to show the world that you cannot get away with what happened in our country.

    I am not an idiot but someone who truly was hurt by the Sept 11 attacks, one who smelled the burning metal and flesh, who witnessed over 100 civil servants lose their lives because of "nice people" who we should talk to.

    My only point being in which you called me an idiot is that forbid an attack on say Uncle Ben similair to the World Trade Center would Simon be as supportive of Iraq's and Arab extremists?

  • patio34
    patio34
    Oh, please, people. The fact that these atrocities were fillmed and as a result the perpetrators were court martialed, and their criminal acts were condemned by the leader of the US is more than enough proof that these people are NOT sanctioned by the US.

    Give it a REST. ------Blacksheep

    Objection: court martial proceedings are just beginning, not a fait accompli. In fact, the investigations as to who all were involved and who knew what and how high up the knowledge went are just starting. Maybe one thread on this is too much for Ms. Blacksheep, but for the rest of the world it's critical that this problem be solved and the guilty punished. To explain the sexual element as a particular form of torture to Arabs, this is from the New Yorker today by Seymour Hersch:

    Such dehumanization is unacceptable in any culture, but it is especially so in the Arab world. Homosexual acts are against Islamic law and it is humiliating for men to be naked in front of other men, Bernard Haykel, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at New York University, explained. ?Being put on top of each other and forced to masturbate, being naked in front of each other?it?s all a form of torture,? Haykel said.

    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

  • patio34
    patio34

    Before dismissing this thing as a few individuals (which is still being investigated), it would be in order to consider how Americans would feel & react if this same treatment (or something aimed at insulting our religion) happened to American POWs. If we're honest, we know that we'd feel similarly, imo.

    The individuals who committed these war crimes have done a great dis-service to this whole chapter in history.

    Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the pan-Arabist London newspaper, al-Quds al-Arabi, said,

    "The liberators are worse than the dictators. This is the straw that broke the camel's back for America . . . "That really, really is the worst atrocity. It affects the honour and pride of Muslim people. It is better to kill them than sexually abuse them.""

    Daud al-Shiryan of Saudi Arabia: "This will increase the hatred of America, not just in Iraq but abroad. Even those who sympathised with the Americans before will stop. It is not just a picture of torture, it is degrading. It touches on morals and religion . . . Abu Ghraib prison was used for torture in Saddam's time. People will ask now what's the difference between Saddam and Bush. Nothing!"

    http://www.juancole.com/2004_05_01_juancole_archive.html#108339227989927746

  • Simon
    Simon

    forty: you are becoming the very thing that you are suggesting we hate - the sort of person who just wants to kill for revenge, and doesn't bother who they kill.

    It is that sort of viewpoint which is the very cause of 3000 (?) people dying in Sep 11.

    I don't think you will accomplish what you want or if anyone truly affected by Sep 11 would want to see murder and attrocities being committed in their name.

    Show some damn respect.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Interesting comments about how this is going down in the Arab world. I heard on the radio an Arab 'moderate' who up till now was not so much 'pro American' but supportive of democracy and against the regimes in the Arab world. It sounded like he had pretty much given up hope and was definitely turning to the opinion that he'd been wrong.

    Great way to win hearts and minds ! NOT

    One wonders if the court marshals and general level of noise are simply because of the publicity after someone came forward. How many other times does this happen? What about the other claims of abuse that Iraqi civilians have made? Not so easy to dismiss now eh?

  • dh
    dh
    it was to show the world that you cannot get away with what happened in our country.

    it's already been 'got away with' - you will lose in iraq too, but you will deny it and say it's a handover, and years later you will withdraw from afghanistan and say that your job is done when really nothing will be any different than 20 years ago, the media will blah blah blah some more as usual, kill lots of people and establish how mighty you are again... then many years from now a few guys will get together, maybe this time it won't be the cia, and they will steal a few planes, and give your ego another kicking, and so on and so forth. it's pathetic.

    i wonder if next time the terrorists will be dumb enough to abandon their holiest book in a rental car, leave a non existent arabic flight manual laying around, and i wonder if any of their passports will survive an inferno in a charred state under millions of tons of rubble... hmmm, i actually had my doubts about this first time around, but if the US say it is so, i guess it must be so.

    you think the US is reacting to 911? 911 WAS a reaction.

    you'll get the reactions of these wars you've just started when the children who's parents you're blowing up now grow up.

    blah blah blah

    back on topic, where is Saddam anyway? I heard he escaped and is planning a come back like Elvis.

    (this post is not meant as a personal attack on anyone, i just get sick of seeing stupid racist shit)

    what do you see?

    love,

    dh'

    (edited to add tact & emphasis in accordance with theocratic ministry school guidelines)

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    "Objection: court martial proceedings are just beginning, not a fait accompli. In fact, the investigations as to who all were involved and who knew what and how high up the knowledge went are just starting. Maybe one thread on this is too much for Ms. Blacksheep, but for the rest of the world it's critical that this problem be solved and the guilty punished." Oh, right. The whole "who knew what and when they new it." There must be some type of conspiracy theory behind a few abusive soldiers whose actions have already been condemned not only by the military but by the president. While I find the actions of these "soldiers" , I'm not going to lose sleep over exactly how and when they'll be punished. And as regards to the homosexual thing as being particularly loathesome to Arabs, so this was particularly humuliating to them. First, interesting that you support and are sensitive to such homophobic views. And second, the American culture is also highly sensitive to certain things. We sensitive to seeing the bodies of our citizens mutilated and dragged through the streets, and beaten beyond recognition. We are also particularly sensitive to having our centers of commerce, the pentagon and the whitehouse slammed into by highjacked plans, our innocent citizens including men, women, and children murdered before our very eyes. While I deplore the soliders actions, forgive me for not being consumed with the "particular outrage" of the narrow, homophobic views of the Arab world.

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