Wasn't Saddam ousted for doing precisely this sort of thing?

by Simon 398 Replies latest social current

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  FMZ

  Confused... you know it baby! Hold on... isnt that Wonder Woman's costume? You bastard!

  FMZ
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  Simon

  More thugs who are helping to create chaos and putting lives at risk

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm

  They should be kicked out, no pay, no weapons, no flight home - let them keep the uniform and dump them in the middle of Bahgdad

  The reason for making the photos public was, they said, to show why the US-UK coalition was encountering such fierce resistance in Iraq.

  One told the paper: "We are not helping ourselves out there. We are never going to get them on our side. We are fighting a losing war."

  One wonders how often this goes on? I think it would be naive to imagine that the only cases of it happening just happen to have been discovered.

  If soldiers are so poorly trained and undisciplined then they should not be there.
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  Englishman

  If soldiers are so poorly trained and undisciplined then they should not be there.

  I agree wholeheartedly. However, the 99.9% who are trained and disciplined should remain.

  ..and shouldn't be tarred with the same brush as the 0.01% who aren't.

  Englishman.
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  blondie

  It seems that this is a product of war, no matter the country, not that it makes it acceptable. It is how these soliders' actions are addressed will be proof of the ethics of the whole. I can readily agree for example, that most religions have cases of child molestation within their ranks, JWs, Mormons, Lutherans, etc. But how do they handle these cases? I am confident that both the British and US military will get to the bottom of this and discipline them according to military law.

  http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=5006692§ion=news

  UK Launches Inquiry Into Iraq Abuse Photos Sat May 1, 2004 05:45 AM ET By Jason Hopps LONDON (Reuters) - Britain launched an inquiry on Saturday into allegations its soldiers beat and urinated on a shackled Iraqi prisoner of war, claims Prime Minister Tony Blair said must be treated seriously and investigated quickly. Saturday's Daily Mirror newspaper published five black and white photographs of British troops apparently kicking, stamping and urinating on a hooded Iraqi in Basra, southern Iraq, where Britain has around 7,500 soldiers. The images drew immediate condemnation from Britain's army chief and defense minister and were published only days after pictures of American troops abusing Iraqi prisoners provoked anger and dismay around the world. "If proven, not only is such appalling conduct clearly unlawful, it clearly contravenes the British army's high standards," said Britain's top general Sir Mike Jackson, who ordered an inquiry into the allegations. "If proven the perpetrators are not fit to wear the queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the army and it's honor," he said. The newspaper said the photographs were obtained from two unnamed soldiers in the Queen's Lancashire Regiment. The soldiers said the Iraqi man in the pictures had been detained on suspicion of stealing. Blair, who is considering sending more troops to Iraq to plug the hole left by the withdrawal of 2,000 Spanish soldiers, gave his full backing to the army probe. His Iraq policy has been a hard sell to a skeptical British public, a majority of whom opposed the war in Iraq, and was recently condemned by 52 former diplomats in an unprecedented attack. "The prime minister agrees the allegations of this nature are treated most seriously, but they should not be taken as a reflection of the general behavior of coalition forces and the work they are doing with the Iraqi people." HEARTS AND MINDS If the pictures are proved to be authentic, they will do little to help British troops win Iraqi hearts and minds ahead of the scheduled June 30 transfer of power. British forces, concentrated in the south of the country around Basra, have previously been praised for their conduct toward the Iraqi people, but the images of prisoner abuse could potentially undo that hard-won reputation. President Bush said he was disgusted by photographs shown on CBS news showing U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners held at Abu Ghraib prison, a notorious center of torture under ousted President Saddam Hussein. Human rights group Amnesty International said it had warned U.S. and British authorities in Iraq that captives were being abused. The British army is already investigating eight soldiers accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners and the U.S. army has brought criminal charges against six soldiers relating to abuses from November and December 2003 on 20 detainees.

  © Copyright Reuters 2004. All rights reserved. Any copying, re-publication or re-distribution of Reuters content or of any content used on this site, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without prior written consent of Reuters.

  http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1207572,00.html

  British investigate 10 claims of abuse Saturday May 1, 2004 The Guardian As photographs show British troops assaulting a prisoner of war, the Ministry of Defence said more than 10 claims of torture and cruelty towards Iraqi PoWs had been investigated.

  Five inquiries into mistreatment of prisoners were ongoing, while officials were studying the findings in other cases.

  · The Royal Military police are conducting nine investigations and the Royal Air Force one

  · Five of the investigations have been completed. Three were found to be unsubstantiated. One was passed to the special investigations board which is considering what to do. The final investigation has been passed to military prosecutors

  · Troops from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, based in Catterick, North Yorkshire, faced questioning in Iraq and in Britain by Royal Military police (RMP) over the alleged killing of an Iraqi PoW, whose body was found in a Basra prison camp.

  The death of pro-Saddam fighter Al-Maliki last September prompted a major inquiry, which found the Iraqi's body had multiple injuries

  · The investigation into Al-Maliki's death examined if there were any links between the incident and a bomb blast which killed one of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment's most popular soldiers.

  Captain Dai Jones, 29, a married man from Louth, Lincs, serving with the 1st Battalion QLR, was killed last August when Iraqi loyalists exploded a remote control device near Basra.

  The regiment was sent to Iraq to carry out peacekeeping duties following the defeat of Saddam Hussein

  · The RMP special investigations branch has investigated a case in which soldiers photographed the alleged torture of Iraqi PoWs left suspended in netting from a forklift truck. Soldiers from the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers have been questioned following the discovery of the images, in which PoWs were gagged and bound.

  It is understood photographic developers initially contacted police last May after they became concerned about a number of pictures on a roll of film which had been handed into their shop for processing.
• 

  Simon

  I agree wholeheartedly. However, the 99.9% who are trained and disciplined should remain.

  Yes, I did mean it that way (ie. people who weren't disciplined shouldn't go)

  ..and shouldn't be tarred with the same brush as the 0.01% who aren't.

  Well, it's OK us deciding not to do that - all we do is look at the pictures. What though of families / relatives who have been brutalised? Do you think it's reasonable to assume they will think "oh well, the soldier who did this was just one bad egg, the rest are good"?

  Note that this extends beyond the incidents in question and into the whole issue of peacekeeping ... it's ok us claiming that civilian deaths are 'unfortunate' (but not worth counting) but there are real people behind those statistics.

  If we really believe that our governments want to bring peace then they need to shape up with how they act and behave.
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  sniperdoc

  I feel I need to interject here. First off, Simon I totally agree with you. I think the people accused in this incident should be made a public example of to the severest level. I can sense Bush's frustration with this and it's totally understandable. I felt it myself when I first learned of it. When I was over there we worked *SO HARD* to maintain the respect of the community. You never see the good things being done over there. You don't see the efforts to rebuild parks and reestablish utilities which the insurgents would keep blowing up in an effort to prove incompetency on the part of the forces. You don't see all the efforts made towards rebuilding the schools and then people loot the schools because of the new items there.

  When I was on ship on my way over to Iraq I was having serious doubts about going into the country. But talking and living with the people every day completely changed my mind. You want to argue about whether or not Saddam gassed people, or how many he gassed? You're an idiot. Go over and talk to the people. You don't even have to ask around they will just thank you and tell you hoe they personally or either someone they know were terrorized by Saddam. Should I itemize the times people would tell me about there entire families being wiped out or their daughters were exploited or Saddam drinking the blood of the people he killed (from the wrist) or the people that were fed to Uday's tigers. I can continue but I won't. Or no...what about all the schools that we would go clear because they were loaded with weapons. Or the lack opf welfare programs for the orphans. Saddam lived frivolously in the face of a poverty stricken nation. Skimming huge percentages from the Oil for Food program at the expense of resources for a nation in dire straits. I *KNOW* we are making progress over there.

  Media is liberal and has an agenda and as such are going to make a conservative leader look like a shmuck, not that GW necessarily needs anyone's help. I personally find him a bit dopey myself. By the frustration is real and I can relate. Because of the way media and politics work this situation is going to totally be exploited for public opinion and used against the effort.

  I have said this before and I will say it again, those people involved were ARMY, a bunch of unprofessional (IMO) shmucks that can't handle war and can barely handle occupying. They train soft and as a result they control soft. When we (I am with Marines) were side by side in Hillah (Babylon) with the Army, the local police forces had no respect for the Army. They offered no help in pursuing insurgents and showed no discipline in dealing with thugs and loyalists. The Marines were aggresive as they needed to be and it worked.

  I can talk for days on this. Simon you are right bro. Hang 'em out to dry. What they did is just as demeaning as some of Saddam's actions. A blatant disregard for human rights. I can tell you for a certainty that the EPWs we handled were NEVER treated this way and if they had been, the wrath of God would come down from a higher level. Sometimes there are young thugs in the Marines too (not to just pick on Army) who didn't understand this concept of human rights or the guidelines of the Geneva Conventions and I can assure you that as far as I was involved we maintained all diplomacy. It earned us the respect of the cities we were in and made us able to negotiate at the benefit of the locals and that's all we are trying to do.

  Doc Newton
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  minimus

  WOW! Now they've got pics of the Brits abusing the Iraquis! When will this ever end?? I can hardly wait until the new system comes!
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  got my forty homey?

  And Simon, who are you going to to root for when Arabs start destroying the UK and your landmarks? Are you going to jump up and down for joy and invite them over for tea and crumpets? Because here in the US after the destruction of the World Trade Center here in New York where live and work I dont care what happens to any of this animals.
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  sniperdoc

  Forty...

  You need to quit talking while you're ahead. You're really making yourself look like an idiot.

  Doc
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  SixofNine

  Damn, this is a big deal. And these soldiers were not afraid as they were doing what they were doing ~ the problem goes higher than them, that much is obvious.

  I'm not much of one for scapegoating, but the individuals AND leadership (lack thereof) responsible must be dealt with in the harshest manner.

  GW Bush should make it look to the world as if he is personally taking a pound of flesh out of the command chain that failed. It's his war, so for the sake of our future and our childrens future, he should convince (not try, do) the Arab world that the west takes this stuff seriously. He won't do that of course, because he's proud and he's stupid and he doesn't really give much thought to our future.