Changd My Mind About the War In Iraq

by roybatty 59 Replies latest social current

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge
    the sooner the US becomes isolationist the better -- in fact they can have the UN building -- let them rebuild in Geneva for all I care -- as for the Iraqis -- pull out the troops and let a nice civil war occur -- serve them right - they will then have what they deserve - and maybe Al Jazeera or whatever the Arab news station is called will finally see there is nobody better at killing muslims than other muslims (yes I know India is predominantly Hindu)

    Amen Brother, AMEN. Let's follow the examples of the Europeans and leave the "colonies" to fend for themselves.

  • roybatty
    roybatty
    From an American perspective, and a world security and peace perspective, there were many workable options besides a quickie invasion and a clueless idea that we could successfully occupy and passify a huge, predominately Muslim country.

    I said from the beginning, do not try and re-build Iraq. Even if there is a preceived threat and support for the enemies of the US, take them out. The rest of the countries will fall in line. That's all these people know. Brute force and weakness. I use to believe that the people of Iraq would want a democratic type system. I was wrong. They don't. Maybe they are like abuse victms (and JWs). They don't know how to think on their own, they don't WANT to think on their own. Screw 'em. Let another dictator rule Iraq. I couldn't care less. Just make it clear to the knew guy if you do ANYTHING to piss us off, we'll be back. You let terrorist camps in you country? BOOM! Secretly support terrorist cells? BOOM! Hell, at this point I'd go after that Iraqi clerics family. You want to take shots at our troops? Fine. Go visit your family who's now in jail. Anyone else want to screw around?

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    do not try and re-build Iraq

    Well, I agree, amazingly enough. I even agree with your ideas on what could-have-been for military pressure on Iraq, though frankly, imo it was a non issue, as the situation was well contained. But sure, Saddam is evil, he dislikes us greatly (though not with the ferver of religous extremist), he wants weapons, kill him. If you can't kill him (and I swear that if you gave me 10 billion dollars I could have gotten him dead and been rich the rest of my life to boot), then hurt him at every turn, make it impossible for him to rule. Eventually, someone else would have killed him for you, once you showed them that he wasn't invincible.

    As Colin Powell told George Bush "if you invade Iraq, you own Iraq" with the inference "we've got so much stuff here already dear, where will we put it? Are you going to take care of it? Don't we have enough "projects" going on without one more? The kids are already missing next years vacation, and they're begging us for health care". I believe he may have had his hands on his hips when he said all this. Except when he said "projects", I'm pretty sure he used his fingers to make quotation marks for that.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    I use to believe that the people of Iraq would want a democratic type system. I was wrong. They don't.

    C'mon man. The word "democracy" doesn't even have anywhere close to the same meaning for "them" that it does for you. You've been raised on a diet of nothing short of religious reverence for the word democracy, and coming with slightly less holiness, but still held in high esteem, are the ideals of democracy.

    It may seem like a no-brainer to you and me, but you and me are not Abdul or Azziz. We aren't better or worse, we just happened to be born in a different part of the world, with a different history giving perspective to the present. But put yourself in Abdul and Azziz's sandals for a moment; you've been told nothing but bad about "the west" and America your entire life, and "democracy" is first and foremost a western ideal. Then GW Bush tells you he's giving you "democracy", which you quickly find online at the local CoffeeNCamels (now with 54g wireless at every location) defined as "self rule", while American tanks and GI's have control of your country? Does that really sound like "self rule" to you? It wasn't as if there was some unmistakable sea of Iraqi sentiment begging for the west to liberate them. You and I may know that that is because they don't know how much better western democracy is, but wtf does our knowledge change?

    Great warriors have empathy for their enemy. Jesus said "love" your enemy. All any of that means is understand your enemy. If you can't, then you are an arrogant worthless American, and coincidentally, your enemy may well be right about you.

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    Well, as a result of the outrage and lunacy of these pictures of abuse and demands for apology, and of the continued futility over there, I've come to pretty much the same conclusion. We don't need this crap. The idea of a true democracy existing in the Arab world, IMO, is a fantasy.

    We went in there because we believed Sadaam was a threat the the US. I believe he was. We toppled his government, but then, being the good Americans that we were, we knew we could not just leave Iraq to fend for themselves. We needed to get in there, knock him out, and get out as soon as possible. Do whatever short term efforts we can to help them build a democracy, but move on. If another dictator like Saddam arises, so be it. Stay out of it, UNLESS they become a threat to the US.

    I've had it with trying to democratize a nation and bring freedom to a nation that really doesn't want it, is incapable of understanding or fostering freedom.

    The US needs to protect itself from terrorism first and foremost, and forget about trying to please the world. I'm SICK of all this anti-American crap. We had 9/11, and we'll see to it that we never have a 9/11 again.

    I agree, let them nuke themselves, as long as they don't present a threat to our country. Clearly, it's each country for itself, and we're wasting our time over there.

  • LucidSky
    LucidSky

    I don't think we should delude ourselves: terrorists will strike in America again. And smashing them with a sledge hammer might work for awhile -- but unless a broader strategy of (1) international cooperation, (2) stable and representative governments and (3) raising of living conditions is pursued, we will be working against a growing tide.

    I also don't think we should abandon the Iraqis to a bloody civil war at this point. We (or rather our President) committed to finishing the job when we went to war. What we need now is international support.

    The first step to Mid-East stability should have been Israel/Palestine though. In my opinion Iraq was somewhat unstable, but contained. I'm all for pursuing changes in oppressive governments but starting unilateral wars to do it happens to be a great way to build up a terrorist base.

    Lucid

  • Realist
    Realist

    i say Lucid for president!

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    And smashing them with a sledge hammer might work for awhile -- but unless a broader strategy of (1) international cooperation, (2) stable and representative governments and (3) raising of living conditions is pursued, we will be working against a growing tide.

    So, explain "international cooperation." Explain who we achieve a stable and representative government in an area/culture that consistently demonstrates itself to be murderous, oppressive, culturally breeding terrorism, who truly don't understand the concept of freedom.

    What do you mean "raising living conditions?." So now we are going to go in and pump money to raise living conditions of people who haven't even demonstrated they have been able to do so, even though they've got a rich oil source. Yes, Saddam raped the people by cutting a deal with UN members--France/Russia, and in so doing starved his people. Based on what I'm seeing over there, there will probably be another Sadaam because they are culturally ripe for it. There's no way we can control it.

    Yes we DO need to fight terrorism at home, on our soil. We need to continue to track down terrorists and destroy their network. We need to get toughter on security at home.

    But, I'm sick of this zoo. Now we've got the Muslim world suddenly incensed at the pictures of some of their terrorist people being humilated. They, who think nothing of murdering, terroriizing, who live in substandard conditions and have for years and don't have a clue how to get out of it becuase they are culturally ingrained to work against a free society. Latest is that they are asking for the blood of those who committed the "atrocities" in the prisons.

    Whatever. Get out and let them destroy themselves. We cannot change their social, cultural, and economic structure. Unitl recently, and with all the political CRAP going on here, including Democrats taking the LEAD in subverting the US government, I believed we could help the Iraqis. Not now. I don't want any more American lives lost over there. They are not worth it.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    My kingdom for an introspective moment from blacksheep.

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    Great warriors have empathy for their enemy. Jesus said "love" your enemy. All any of that means is understand your enemy. If you can't, then you are an arrogant worthless American, and coincidentally, your enemy may well be right about you.

    Interersting you say that people wh can people who don't understand their enemies are "arrogant worthless AMERICANS."

    You ARE the enemy.

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