Catholic "Just War" Doctrine vs JW Pacifist Doctrine

by rocketman 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • gumby
    gumby

    Blondie came through! Of course. ( Thanks Blondie)

    Here is the article she gave me that discusses New Light as to when the "final Judgment" is made as to who are sheep and goats. The old understanding was at the time the "Great Tribulation" began....the door would be closed to the "ark" so to speak, and it would be too late for a change of heart as judgement had already been made of the goats.

    Here's the article:

    w95 10/15 pp. 23-24 What Future for the Sheep and the Goats?

    "Jesus foretold striking developments to come ?immediately after? the outbreak of great tribulation, developments we await. He said that then ?the sign of the Son of man? would appear. This will profoundly affect ?all the tribes of the earth? who will ?see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.? The Son of man will be accompanied by ?his angels.? (Matthew 24:21, 29-31) What of the parable of the sheep and the goats? Modern Bibles put it in chapter 25, but it is part of Jesus? reply, giving further details about his coming in glory and focusing on his judging of ?all the nations.??Matthew 25:32.

    Once we appreciate when it is that the judgment shown in this parable is rendered, we get a clearer view of who the goats are. The fulfillment is when ?the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming . . . with power and great glory.? (Matthew 24:29, 30) Survivors of the tribulation on Babylon the Great who have treated the King?s brothers despitefully may now desperately address the Judge as ?Lord,? hoping to save their lives.?Matthew 7:22, 23; compare Revelation 6:15-17.

    21 What, though, does this fresh understanding of the parable of the sheep and the goats mean to us? Well, people are already taking sides. Some are on ?the broad road leading off into destruction,? while others try to stay on ?the cramped road leading off into life.? (Matthew 7:13, 14) But the time when Jesus will pronounce final judgment on the sheep and the goats depicted in the parable is yet ahead. When the Son of man comes in the role of Judge, he will determine that many true Christians?actually ?a great crowd? of dedicated sheep?will qualify to pass through the final part of ?the great tribulation? into the new world."

    Gumby

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    They followed it up, over the years, by considering how people were already laying down a life course that showed their "sheeplike" or "gotlike" disposition, that would be sealed at the big "A".
    I guess they had to back-track, somehow.

    I dont recall if they ever put that in print, though. It may have been via C.O.'s.

  • heathen
    heathen

    I notice it is very vague . They didn't denounce the false religionists as they used to do since they were at the time affiliated with the UN . It seemed it was much more the us against them doctrine and the FDS in broolyn was the only voice that would lead the sheep like ones to eternal life since they are in fact the only channel of communiction through holy spirit and jesus conveys the spiritual food at the proper time through them.hmmmmmmmmmmm

  • undercover
    undercover

    Going back to the first post for a moment;

    Interesting points. I have had similar thoughts myself.

    Here's something that I have thought about since Sept. 11; What if a JW had been on the hijacked plane that the passengers tried to take back. Would he have stuck with his WT ideals in not "being part of the world" and refrained from getting involved in a violent act to try to take the plane back?

    I have put myself on that plane and I hope that I would have been one of the ones who tried to make a difference. I would hate to think that I would have spent my last moments of life cowering behind some fanatical religious belief refusing to try to help save lives, because I wouldn't get involved in some political controversy.

    While JWs may not accept the pacifist label, thier teachings and actions reflect otherwise.

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    There were JWs on that plane. Sadly it was the one that Crashed into the WTC so it is not like they could have known. A JW fireman was killed too. We get the crap beat out of us too you know. It is not like Jehovah protects us from stuff.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Sometimes it seems sometimes the JW's "theocratic warfare" tactics have done more damage to families and people than conventional war.....

  • undercover
    undercover

    I knew about the fireman. I had met him. He was a friend of some friends of mine. He died trying to help save lives; he rushed into a burning building. That was a brave and noble act.

    I'm not questioning if God protects one group over another. I assume that he doesn't.

    My question is, would a JW have helped in trying to overtake hi-jacker/terrorists who had seized their plane? The passengers on the plane that crashed in PA had heard about the other planes being hi-jacked and crashed into buildings. These passengers, knowing that this fate awaited them, made a plan of action and staged a counter-offensive against the hi-jackers. At this point, it is clear that the hi-jackers are anti-American and this is an an act of war against America. If a JW was to remain politically neutral he would have to decline in strategizing or helping in any kind of manuever to regain control of the plane. What purpose does this pacifism serve? Would it not be better to die fighting trying to stay alive than sit back and passively await death?

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    As you can see this docterine writen in conflicting terms.

    "However, the fact that the separation of people to life or to death mentioned at Matthew 25:32 is yet future does not mean that no separating, or dividing, occurs before that. "

    "Jesus will arrive in his glory with his angels and will sit on his judgment throne. Then, he will separate people."

    It is also a veiled attempt to hide this verbage:

    "The illustration deals with anointed Christians (who in the parable of the sheep and the goats are called Jesus? brothers). Still, the point is clear that a vital separation does occur during our time, with the anointed being distinguished from those who profess to be Christians but who prove themselves to be "sons of the wicked one.""

    *** wt chap. 20 pp. 181-183 Keep Close in Mind Jehovah?s Day ***

    What Lies Ahead?

    12 All of the above signifies that we are near the end of the last days and that Jehovah?s day is close at hand. But are there prophecies yet to be fulfilled before that fear-inspiring day begins? Yes. For one thing, the separating of people over the Kingdom issue is not yet finished. In some areas where intense opposition was experienced for years, there is now an increase in new disciples. Even where people reject the good news, Jehovah?s mercy is demonstrated by our giving the witness. So, on with the work! Jesus assures us that when the work is finished, the end will come.

    *** w00 6/1 pp. 13-14 Keep Your "Hope of Salvation" Bright! ***

    17 Second, the preaching of the good news lays the foundation for God?s righteous judgment. About that judgment, Jesus said: "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Though the judging and separating will be done "when the Son of man arrives in his glory," the preaching work is providing people today with the opportunity to recognize Christ?s spiritual brothers and thus to work in support of them for their own eternal salvation.?Matthew 25:31-46.

    *** w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***

    Questions From Readers

    We were thrilled with our study of Jesus? parable of the sheep and the goats. In view of the new understanding presented in "The Watchtower" of October 15, 1995, can we still say that Jehovah?s Witnesses today are sharing in a separating work?

    Yes. Understandably, many have wondered about this because Matthew 25:31, 32 says: "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." The Watchtower of October 15, 1995, showed why these verses apply after the great tribulation begins. Jesus will arrive in his glory with his angels and will sit on his judgment throne. Then, he will separate people. In what sense? He will render decisions based on what people did or did not do before that time.

    We can compare this to the development of a legal process leading up to a court case. The evidence builds up over an extended period before the court rules and hands down a sentence. The evidence as to whether people now alive will turn out to be sheep or goats has been accumulating for a long time. And it is still coming in. But when Jesus sits on his throne, the case will be complete. He will be ready to render judgment. People will be separated either to everlasting cutting-off or to everlasting life.

    However, the fact that the separation of people to life or to death mentioned at Matthew 25:32 is yet future does not mean that no separating, or dividing, occurs before that. The Bible, in Matthew chapter 13, mentions one separation work that occurs earlier. Interestingly, the book United in Worship of the Only True God, pages 179-80, treats this under the heading "Separating of People". The book says: "There are also other significant events that Jesus prominently associated with the conclusion of the system of things. One of these is the separation of the ?sons of the kingdom? from the ?sons of the wicked one.? Jesus spoke of this in his parable about a wheat field that an enemy oversowed with weeds."

    The book was referring to Jesus? illustration set out at Matthew 13:24-30 and explained in verses 36-43. Note in verse 38 that the fine seeds of wheat represent the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds stand for the sons of the wicked one. Verses 39 and 40 show that in the ?conclusion of the system of things??during the time in which we now live?the weeds are collected. They are separated out and finally burned, destroyed.

    The illustration deals with anointed Christians (who in the parable of the sheep and the goats are called Jesus? brothers). Still, the point is clear that a vital separation does occur during our time, with the anointed being distinguished from those who profess to be Christians but who prove themselves to be "sons of the wicked one."

    Jesus provided other examples of people being divided, or separated. Recall that he said concerning the broad road that leads to destruction: "Many are the ones going in through it." (Matthew 7:13) That was not a comment just about the final outcome. It was a comment about an ongoing development, just as is true now of the few finding the cramped road leading off into life. Recall, too, that when sending out the apostles, Jesus said that they would find some who would be deserving. Others would not be deserving, and the apostles were to shake the dust off their feet "for a witness against" such people. (Luke 9:5) Is it not true that something similar happens as Christians carry on their public ministry today? Some respond well, whereas others reject the divine message that we are bringing.

    The articles in The Watchtower dealing with the sheep and the goats noted: "While the judging as described in the parable is in the near future, even now something vital is taking place. We Christians are engaged in a lifesaving work of proclaiming a message that causes a division among people. (Matthew 10:32-39)." In that passage in Matthew chapter 10, we read that Jesus said that following him would be a cause for division?father against son, daughter against mother.

    Finally, Christ?s spirit-anointed brothers have spearheaded the worldwide preaching of the Kingdom message. As people hear it and react favorably or unfavorably, they are identifying themselves. We humans cannot, and we should not, say, ?This person is a sheep; that one a goat,? in the sense conveyed in Matthew chapter 25. Still, our exposing people to the good news allows them to show where they stand?what they are and how they react to Jesus? brothers. Hence, like mounting evidence for a court case, the division between those who support Jesus? brothers and those who refuse to support them is becoming evident. (Malachi 3:18) As The Watchtower showed, Jesus will soon sit on his throne and pronounce sentence, people being judicially separated in a final sense to life or to cutting-off.

  • rocketman
    rocketman

    undercover,

    You ask an interesting question. While it seems like a no-brainer that anyone in his/her right mind would have done whatever possible to thwart that terrorist effort, I still hesitate to automatically say 'of course a jw would have helped out'. My guess is that the jw would, but not before 'prayerfully considering' (as the wts like to say) whther his action would be approved by God or considered an act of violating "Christian neutrality", another common wts term. But I'd hate to think he/she'd do nothing. Then again, who knows?

  • gumby
    gumby

    What's intresting is the underlying reasoning the society used for qualification for survival through Armageddon, is by "doing good to Jesus brothers". In other words........being kind in some way to the Annointed. That always baffled my ass as a witness......doing good to the annointed. What....mow their lawn, take out the trash for them, clean their house, pay for their service gas money, buy them stuff......what? How am I supposed to be nicer to the annointed than I am to the "other sheep"?

    Of course the society's stupid- ass reasoning, is that by aiding in the preaching work.....your doing good to the annointed. How are you doing them good? By helping them with the work that's only their to do? I thought it was everyones duty as a witness to preach? If it is.....how is it you are "doing good" to the annointed, in doing what your supposed to be doing in the stinkin first place? Sounds like slave labor for the annointed to me.

    Gumby

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit