What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros 108 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  ros

  H'lo, Jan:

  You may be right, I don't know the source of your statistics. I can only say those numbers do not seem to be reflected in these forums.
• 

  Scorpion

  rem,

  One cannot prove that God does not exist, they can only deny his existence. I cannot prove that God exists, God does that!
• 

  larc

  Scorpian,

  How does God do that? Does have personal dialogue with you?

  JanG,

  As much as I admire your work, when you use phrases like "find their way back", you imply that there is an answer. Perhaps there isn't, or perhaps those who don't believe have the answer and your beliefs are happy beliefs, albeit, delusional ones.

  I am happy with my nonbeliefs. I wouldn't have it any other way, and I feel as sorry for you as you feel for me. I am not trying to be mean spirited when I write this - just honest.
• 

  Jang

  You may be right, I don't know the source of your statistics. I can only say those numbers do not seem to be reflected in these forums.

  I have been keeping stats myself for years ...... so my figures are based on my contacts.

  You won't find many who are Christians on these forums .... I see a lot more on the private mailing lists though.

  JanG
  CAIC Website: http://caic.org.au/zjws.htm
  Personal Webpage: http://uq.net.au/~zzjgroen/
• 

  Jang

  I am happy with my nonbeliefs. I wouldn't have it any other way, and I feel as sorry for you as you feel for me. I am not trying to be mean spirited when I write this - just honest

  Did I say I felt sorry for you Larc? I don't feel sorry for you at all. You say you are happy with your nonbeliefs so why should I?

  People who had some sort of relationship while Jws who go into non-belief and then have a relationship again have technically "found their way back". I am one of those Larc ..... and I really worked hard at staying a non-believer.

  A lot of my xjw friends are non-believers and some are pagans. I respect where they are at just as much as I respect the believer. I don't get my knickers in a knot about this (like I did as a fundy) because we all have our own spiritual journey to make and we have all our life to make it. As long as I care and respect their spirit (who we are intrinsically) as much as I care and respect mine, that is all that is important.

  JanG
  CAIC Website: http://caic.org.au/zjws.htm
  Personal Webpage: http://uq.net.au/~zzjgroen/
• 

  Pathofthorns

  I think of those that leave, most seem to be more comfortable proclaiming themselves to be agnostics as opposed to athiests.

  I think that in addition to logic, there are other factors. One being that as a JW, the GB failed to answer many issues with the answer "WE DON'T KNOW". Sometimes for things that no one can state consclusively either way, it is good to say "I don't know". Otherwise, you end up like the GB making serious mistakes.

  Further, as a JW, most have been convinced that ALL religions besides JWs are WRONG and CORRUPT. Once you realize that the JW religion is also this way, one feels there is NOTHING in the way of ORGANIZED religion that is GOOD. Eventually most private study becomes organized, which is a distasteful thing to most JW's.

  I do think this turning people away from belief in God is their greatest crime, since they accomplish the exact opposite of what they set out and claim to do. Although I feel comfortable in saying I don't know anymore.

  As much as out of logic, this conclusion for me is a self protection mechanism in that I was led astray once and will do everything possible to prevent it from happening again.

  Path
• 

  Abaddon

  I think the fact that there is no god 'drives' many xJW's to becoming atheists.

  Obviously some people believe in god; fine. But generally the 'Awwww, you poor ickle thing, throwing the baby out with the bath-water' attitude of some xJW theists and the fundy morons sucks.

  I'm sure that atheists can have an equally annoying 'Awwww, you poor ickle thing, still clinging to primative outmoded explinations of reality' rankles some theists.

  I think we both have to accept each others right to decide.

  However, of xJW atheists I have discussed the issue with, there seems to be no general level of ignorance about religion. Indeed, some are very educated about religion and still reject it.

  I do not always see the same level of knowledge of science in xJW theists. Very often they, in addition to having a belief in god, have quite low levels of scientific knowledge or major misconceptions about scienece, often dating from the days when they regarded the 'Creation Book' as a masterpiece of scientific writing.

  Also, some xJW theists seem to believe that atheists are unhappy, afraid of death, lost, resentful, angry with god, and have no spirituality.

  Well, obviously some answer that description; me, I'm not afraid of death, more directed than ever, glad I got out but glad I went through what I did as I like who I am, sometimes a little scathing in the offensive against the truely repugnant ideas that religion sometimes engenders and the illogical nature of the biblical deity, but not angry with god as I can't be as he doesn't exist and that's not his fault, and have a clear concept of my own spirituality.
• 

  hippikon

  . http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=7264&site=3

  
  "But it does move"
  Galileo
• 

  Quester

  Hey Ros,

  GHP2 here, who has oddly become inspired to post on this board lately. :)

  Good question you posted. I am curious to see what kind of
  replies you get on this one.

  When people mention logic, it always reminds me of the Star Trek
  character, Spock. He could not understand the simplest things
  sometimes because he was too logical, too literal. I think there are
  different kinds of knowing beside logic and if a person relies on
  logic/facts alone they are limiting themselves.

  I too considered the jw religion a step up from other traditional
  literalistic or fanatical Christian religions. From studying
  modern day Bible scholarship and contemporary writings,
  I now know that there are other more positive alternatives
  out there for me. Quester
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Ros: Some above have suggested logic as the basis for x-jws to become atheists. I am not sure that pure logic is the reason in and of itself. On the surface, logic should cause one to conclude that the complex universe could as easily be designed as not, and that a wait and see attitude would be more logical.

  I think the issue is one of distrust and a willingness to question everything. The distrust seems to have its birth upoin leaving JWs, because one sees that so many things have been twisted, contorted, and even lied about by religious men in leadership. As a person begins to examine other religions, the Bible, ancient cultures, and what various professional critiques have discovered about these basic foundation stones upon which Christianity is built, then the distrust emerges and grows into total distrust of almost anything religious.

  Upon using science to further the evaluation, serious questons begin to form, and this is where a certain level of logic comes into play as a tool. For example, some good issues are raised with the observation that viruses exist, and are observed to evolve. If the world was a designed and created product of a wise and loving God, then why do these basic lifeforms evolve and harm all living things?

  Another example is that of Adam and Eve, their sin, and the impact upon the rest of humanity. God was holding all the cards, made all the rules, and had the power to deal with any situation any way he wants. Atheists and Agnostics find it difficult to believe that God would 'booby-trap' Adam and Eve such that when they eat a peice of silly fruit, that future generations of humans for thousands of years would be born in sickness and death, with a bent toward sinning. How can sin be charged against people who were born with that tendancy? How can God hold people accountable for sin when it was his own design that forced them to sin? These are just a sample of the types of questions that seem to not have any satisfactory answers.

  FInally, science leads one to demand reasonable level of proof, not that faith would be totally dissolved, but at least have some level of proof that what we know of God is not merely a product of human invention, being refined with layers and layers of better plausibilities as the centuries advance in science. So far, most any argument advanced in favor of God's existence is based on human conjecture and mere claims that holy books, such as the Bible, is or contains inspiration from God. No real evidence exist that this is not purely human contrivance. So, the skeptical individual who is Agnostic or Atheist learns that anything claiming to originate with God can more than likely be shown to as easily originate with creative human invention.

  A good example is prayer. Not one person on this earth can demonstrate that when they pray, God is there lkistening. No one can demonstrate that God talks to them and converses in any real substantive relationship. Claims that prayers are answered as evidence of God can only be made by those who feel that prayers were answered. What about the millions of people who pray for many of the same things and get no answer? The claim is made that God must have said no to them. But, really, it can as easily be that by chance, some people got what they wanted and most people did not, because the law of large numbers and averages is that some people will realize what they want, and most will not. Yet, in all this, the honest person has to admit that they have no real idea whether God was there listening, said yes, or no to them, or that he is not there at all, and the events are then merely interpreted to mean what they think God must have intended for them.

  I think the questions you you might now want to ask is What basis do those ex-JWs who retain faith have for continued belief in God? On what rational, logical, or scientific basis do they have to believe in a god? What gives them reason for faith? From an atheist point of view, religious people in today's advanced level of technical and mental evolution, appear to be abuse victims. That is, God keeps ignoring religious people and offering no proof to fulfill their faith, and yet religious people keep coming back for more, even when they are sick and say, dying of cancer or some other loathsome disease. This might be comparable to a women who keeps going back to an abusive husband who says he loves her, and yet he keeps ignoring her needs, and allows outsiders to harm her, while he sits and watches, having the power to protect her, but does nothing. Does this not make God appear to be more of a ficticious person, an invention of wishful thinking?

  These are the questions religious people need to answer with more than well contrived plausibilities. Religous people need to provide some solid basic for faith. Faith is fine in and of itself, but must be anchored in something solid. As Paul put it, faith is the evidence demonstration of realities though not beheld. As a person of science, I have never seen electricity, but as an electrical engineer and researcher, I have seen the evident demonstration of its reality, the law combined with the theory, such that I have full faith in the existence of electricity, and can demonstrate it to others.

  This, Ros, is an example of what atheists and Agnostics need, especially those of the scientific variety, in order to develop an honest and truthful response to the possibility of God's existence. Then, faith may develop, but it must be accompanied by trust. Atheists and Agnostics find it hard to trust the God of the Bible who comes across as a bipolar schizoid, an angry jealous God who zaps them with snakes, wandering in the dessert for 40 years, and all kinds of wars, etc. and then when Jesus arrives, God seems like the new improved Mr. Nice Guy who never meant to harm anyone. Even them, God retains the desire to wipe out unbelievers at Armageddon by popping their eyes out, birds eating their flesh, and in some churches, these people then go to hell and burn for eternity while the Devil stabs them with a pitch fork.

  We as Christians have got to completely and honestly, with total openmindedness revisist our entire basis for belief in, faith in, and all claims about God, and see what it is that we can truthfully demonstrate with evidence, even if certain realities cannot be beheld ... much like demonstrating the existence and function of electricity while people still cannot see electricity. We need to do this, not with plausible comparative illustrations, but with rock solid and concrete evidenciary demonstration that proves the God's existence is more than human fantasy and wishful thinking.

  Amazing