Abortion...

by Lostreality 215 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Abaddon

  Just to clarify the Mormon beliefs; a good Mormon at death get his own planet where he and his wives can have lots of spirit babies who are born in physical worlds like ours.

  As an x-jw it always makes me feel a little better when I look at what other cults believe...

  Obviously people who believe such things are perfectly free to do so. But it is faith-based belief. We like in a secular society where the impostion of faith-based beliefs (unless they happen to coincide with those of society as a whole) is considered unwarranted.

  Yiz, most of those 40 million babies were incacpable of external survival when they were aborted. Many did not even have the neurological complexity to even approach being 'human' in the sentient sense of the word. Due to your faith you believe it is wrong to kill such unborns.

  But please don't shrug aside 11,000 living aware intelligent human being (some of whom were little babies if that helps any) being killed for no crime.

  Just because you believe abortion is wrong doesn;t mean you should stand back from decrying a tragic level of civilian casualties.

  Oh;

  Makes it easy to think that way so your conscience won't bother you, doesn't it?

  Congratulation; you have lowered the tone of the debate. It's a pity the respect that most pro-chicers have for the anti-choicers right to an opinion is something you cannot return, instead having to resort to moralistic judgemental attacks.

  Aaron

  I think you have a problem understanding how and why the imposition of religiously-based beliefs woiuld infrige human rights. The problem - be it with putative Mormons in polygamous marriages with of girls they'd be accused of the statutory rape of in other states, be if with the banning of teaching evolution in the classroom, be it with banning abortion - is that whilst some religious people would welcome such things, other religious people and secular people would hold such laws to violate human rights.

  Lead you life in your way. Look to the rafter in Mormon society's eye before the grit in secular society's. And let me know when they find those golden plates, as otherwise all Mormon is based on is the same conceit and desire for control that other cults are based upon.
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  Aaron2

  Yes.....I'm the same Aaron2 from Tims board...The Mormon Aaron that is.

  Anyway....No I have not adopted any children in need. My wife and I are trying to get into foster care though and who knows what will happen then. I'm still young and starting out in life. I have a goal to change the world during my lifetime. One way I believe I can do that is through our children. Doing foster care gives me a chance to have a good influence on their lives. I believe my wife and I have a morally strong family and I believe other children could benefit from that. I've live in two foster homes in my lifetime and they both had a huge impact on me. Children are the future, hence we should focus our time on them......Too many adults never grow up. We're living in a society of people who don't want to accept the responsibilities of Adulthood. Abortion is one of the evidences of that.

  My wife can get pregnant, and she is very much so against abortion. You say that if men could get pregnant, this topic would not even be an issue. I believe you're misguided in that. It seems as though the womens movement is trying to portray abortion as a fight between women and men. Men want to get women pregnant and force them to carry the child to term. Women want to be free of men......What absurd nonsense. This is not an argument between women and men. This is an argument between the women and men who are pro-choice and the women and men who are pro-life. If only the aborted babies could enter into the debate, maybe the debate would be completely different.

  I disagree with the pro-lifers who walk around with signs of aborted babies trying to gross people out. I think they should make commercials interviewing people who were almost aborted by their moms, but left to live. Then have them tell about their lives and accomplishments. They could end by saying how grateful they are to their moms for the chance to live that their moms gave them instead of cutting it off at birth. I think those commercials would be a lot more effective.

  Aaron2
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  Aaron2

  Let's look at the case of Scott Peterson. Here's a playboy who doesn't want the responsiblities of being a husband and father. If he get's a divorce, he'll still have to face up to the consequences for his actions. Maybe it was a bad decision for him to get married. How does he get out of it with no consequences......Well, he can kill his pregnant wife. If he doesn't get caught, then he can go on living his life the way he wants to.

  Women gets pregnant from fooling around with her boyfriend. Neither one of them want the responsibilities of being parents. Maybe it was a bad decision to be having sex in the first place. But either way, she's still pregnant. If they decide to have the baby to full term, then he might have to pay child support and she might get fat and go through a lot of pain. They could give the baby to adoption, but still, that might ruin her perfect figure....What's the answer? Kill the baby. Then there's no more consequences. Just a little scar from the abortion. But the father doesn't have to pay child support. The mother doesn't have to lose her figure. They can go on living as if she'd never been pregnant. Then life is bliss.....

  A lot of simmilarities in the two cases.

  Now let's look at the reality of the situation. Scott Peterson if found guilty will live the rest of his life in prison. He also has to live with the guilt of what he did (if he did it). There is a God and an afterlife and the consequences for what he did will catch up to him. Even if you don't believe in that. You can't deny Kharma and the laws of the Universe. Consequences will catch up with him. Did he manage to liberate himself by killing his wife? Nope....He's more in bondage now than he was before. Hence the rules of right and wrong play out.

  Many of the women who fight against abortion are women who have had abortions. They realize the seriousness of what they did and that guilt looms with them. So they join the fight against abortion so more young girls and women won't have to go through the mistake of what they did. Did they manage to liberate themselves by killing the baby? Not really. Unfortunately killing an unborn child is legal, so the worlds laws won't provide a consequence. But the Unverse will and does. Its natural consequences that cannot be avoided.

  I choose to make abortion illegal to liberate women from the bondage of their mistakes by killing an unborn baby. I 'know' there will be serious consequences in the future. I choose to help young girls and women avoid those consequences by facing up to the decisions they made, and not making further wrong decisions.

  Let's not preach abortion, lets preach abstinence until marriage. Is that out of the question for many of you? Probably!

  Aaron2
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  jwbot

  Aaron, having an abortion IS taking responsibility. Do you think it is an easy choice? You are extremely misguided if you feel your OPINION on morals should be law.
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  Crazy151drinker

  I choose to make abortion illegal to liberate women from the bondage of their mistakes by killing an unborn baby. I 'know' there will be serious consequences in the future. I choose to help young girls and women avoid those consequences by facing up to the decisions they made, and not making further wrong decisions.

  Its not YOUR choice hero. Who are you do to make that decision? Why dont you Castrate the Men to liberate them from the posibility of making the same mistake?
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  jwbot

  lol @ crazy.

  He wants to eliminate abortion AND create laws and stigma in society that would make abortion more sought out...something tells me he is lying about his age.
• 

  Crazy151drinker

  As a Mormon, I believe that we all lived together in a spirit world before we came to earth

  Ahhh I missed this part. This explains it. I tell you what, I'll cut you a deal, when you find those gold plates I will support your position.

  Have they found any evidence of those Ancient North American kingdoms mentioned in the Book of Mormon? I can go to Bethleham, I can go to Isreal, Egypt, I can see the temples.....where did all the 'Mormon' cities go?? You would think a Church with the resources of the Mormon chruch would be activily looking for said cities, and ruins. Lets not even get into the obvious Kings James Verses that are in the Book of Mormon (ie copied). How about that Jewish-indian link??

  What a joke.

  How are you going to debate Abortion when your opinion is based upon a made up faith?
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  Cassiline

  Aaron my argument is not a female v male argument I am sorry if it came off that way, although I feel since you are not able to have children then you truly have no right to impose your choice on women. You are the one who stated that men and woman enjoy equal rights. I pointed out otherwise. You are not forced to give your organs or tissue for that of your dying son or daughter or cousin.

  You of course may want to do such but you have the right to choose not to. While we as woman because we are able to become pregnant via force, consent, or accident while you can not as a man. Women should deserve the same choice under the same law which does not force you to give your organs/tissue to another.

  
  And if we move onto those with religious based beliefs against abortion IMO it all comes down to interpretation of that which one reads. How can we as imperfect men and women claim to know what was meant? How are we assured today that each side is correct in their analysis and interpretation?

  We have both sides who say, no, no, no! it was meant this was or that way! If the bible were meant to be so clear do you not think that God would have made it so there was not so much uncertainty to those ?simple? humans who are imperfect?

  But alas we have hundreds of religions with hundreds of interpretations of that they read. Who is to say whose is correct? You who would judge others or those who judge others because they supposedly are not doing the right thing?
  

  Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way as you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (NIV) Matthew 7:1-2

  I use to believe that this was the simplest verse in the bible to understand, unfortunately there are those who look for and find scriptures where they claim God did indeed give them to right to judge others and will interpret such to fit their means.

  Some claim that the scriptures below make a case for abortion (these and many others), but I have also read the converse and know both sides. The supposed changing of Hebrew words etc. My point is anyone can think or believe they know what God wants.

  But do you really, you are far from perfect ( as the bible states) so how do you truly know you are correct any more so than the Buddhist or those who believe in Hinduism or Muslim Beliefs? How are you so sure that your religion is the right one? I find it hard to believe with hundreds out there so many are wrong. We are imperfect therefore how do we truly know?

  "If a man fathers a hundred children and lives many years, however many they be, but his soul is not satisfied with good things, and he does not even have a proper burial, then I say, `Better the miscarriage than he, for it comes in futility and goes into obscurity; and its name is covered in obscurity. It never sees the sun and it never knows anything; it is better off than he.'"
  Ecclesiastes 6:3-5

  "Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."
  Ecclesiastes 4:1-3

  "And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
  Exodus 21:22-25

  If one wants to they can take the issue of rape and murder and make it right by taking passages out of context in the Bible. Why again would God make it so hard for us understand if indeed life were that simple. Why would God want his message so hard to understand for millions?

  The one this I do know that here on the planet life is terminal and to life the fullest life we can without trying to impose our own choices onto those who may disagree with another set of values or choices.

  Cassi
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  Aaron2

  You said...."Aaron, having an abortion IS taking responsibility. Do you think it is an easy choice? "

  So is killing your wife.....but that doesn't make it right. I'm sure Scott Peterson didn't do this on a wim. It was a hard decision for him to make. One that he probably thought about a long time before he did it as many first degree murderers do. Wake up girly........you're not seeing things too clearly.

  The only way I think my opinion should be law is if the majority of rational people (like myself.... ;) ) believe the same way I do. Our laws should be reflective of our society. As society becomes more and more corrupt, then so will our laws. Then our beloved nation and people will be destroyed. Mark my words.......

  Here's a question to anyone who wants to answer it. If I believe that abortion is murder, and does extensive harm to the person having the abortion, the families and parties involved and most of the all the baby. If I know that to be true. Then why should I vote to keep it legal? Just because you and others might be misguided? Are you saying that I should NOT stand up for what I know and believe. That since you believe that abortion is a good thing that you CAN stand up for what you believe, and I should not because mine is different than yours. That sounds like stupidity to me. It's like in a game of football, telling the other team not to tackle your players because it stops you from scoring a touchdown. Although it might be worth a try, you're really naive if you actually expect the other team to do it just because you believe that your team might deserve to win more than they do.

  Aaron2
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  drwtsn32

  Aaron, vote according to how you believe. If you believe it's ok to force religious viewpoints on people, then so be it. We can only hope that people who stand for independent thinking outnumber people like you.