Modern-day Israel's Identity

by Onetruesource 78 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    Dear One: I think that you have misunderstood me. I do not accuse you of believing that God’s words are useless nor do I believe this either. You posted: “prophecy is revealed by Jehovah, not man.” I am in agreement with that statement and as a result I feel compelled to ask you why is it then that so many men are hell-bent on doing just that –trying to reveal prophecy? If that is God’s providence then why not allow him to do his job?
    From your quote of 2 Pet. 1:20:

    For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation.

    May I ask then why are you paying attention to ‘private interpretation’?

    For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit

    These men that are ‘revealing’ these prophesies to you, are they being ‘borne along by holy spirit’? Are they speaking ‘from God’? If so then I think it’s only fair that some credentials be shown, credentials commensurate with the claims. If not, then they are merely opinions, and we seem to have plenty of these.

    So, if you are trying to discredit the scriptures…

    It never ceases to amaze (and amuse) me how when men are confronted with opposition to their theories about God and his purposes they immediately accuse their inquisitors of challenging God himself. It’s you, sir, that I challenge, not God. It is you who makes the claim of having this privileged insight into God’s Word and, unbidden, are trying to pass it off as divine revelation to those of us who have already had a belly full of guesses and second guesses.
    I am grateful for your warning about the virtues of listening before speaking and I would like to reciprocate your kindness by reminding you of yet another warning from the Word.

    Not many of YOU should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment. James 3:1 (NWT)

    Realizing the tremendous responsibility (and accountability) placed upon those who step forward and presume to speak for God should be reason for pause. It should make one very careful about what he says for God holds him accountable for it. Jesus made that plain in his parable when he said: “Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him.” (Luke 12:48 -NWT)
    Now, I for one, would appreciate your views concerning anything and everything that the Scriptures have to offer –as long as your opinions are stated as such, i.e. views and opinions. Speaking for myself only, however, I must tell you what I have already told others on these boards. I did not come here to sit passively and allow someone (with no more credentials than myself) to preach to me. I am not in your church nor do I wish to be.
    Your words: “Don't be so quick to speak.” I have had my fill of remaining silent while someone else spoon fed me nonsense and I shall have no more of it. I shall speak each and every time I feel the need to do so. How dare you assume such authority as to be able to silence someone else.
    Your quotation of John 18:37:” "Everyone on the side of truth listens to my voice." Please remember that the pronoun ‘my’ in this verse refers to Jesus and not to any man or group of men. You, (or your new found teachers) sir, are not Jesus nor have you paid the price that he did in order to merit the audience that he deservedly commands. By attempting to place yourself in association with that one you now occupy a very dangerous position. You had better be correct in everything that you say and do because if you do not, then you make him out to be a liar. He and his Father take a dim view of being reproached.
    Your words: “Don't be so quick to condemn. You might find yourself actually a fighter against God.” I do hope that you are giving this very careful consideration. Again I must remind, be very careful and judicious with your claims for you could very well be called into an accounting for them.

    …and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. (Matt 7:2 --NWT)

    A parting note: Threats and fear are not effective tools in leading people to God. They have been tried for centuries and in the end they produce no lasting effects. Love is the key. True there are dire warnings of the penalties for disobedience but the judgment and sentence for disobedience is reserved for God and Jesus alone. No human has the right to wield these threats at his fellow man.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Onetruesource
    Onetruesource

    Hello,
    I would like to share a “sacred secret” with you. In the book of Revelation, heavenly things are actually earthly things. It is a symbolic book. The new heaven spoken of in 2 Peter 3:13 is really the new governmental structure God will use to bring about rightousness in the earth. In Revelation 12, the woman arrayed with the twelve stars on her head is not in heaven, but on earth. The twelve star represent the twelve sons on Jacob. That’s right, this is “Israel”; Modern-Day Israel. She is about to give birth to a son that will rule the nations with an iron rod. She is in pain, birth pains(an earthly symbol), because of the turmoil that is going on inside of her. Something is about to come out.
    This woman is the Modern Day spiritual nation of Israel. She is about to expel a large group of high-level brothers all at one time. These are leading brothers within the organization that are fighting for reform. They see the wickedness in the organization and are trying to change things. They will be expelled. This is the birth of the male child. Jehovah will use this group, after they have been refined, to be the new heavens. Listen to the prophet at Isaiah 66:5-8:

    “ “Hear the word of Jehovah, you men who are trembling at his word: “ Your brothers that are hating you, that are excluding you by reason of my name, said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified!' He must also appear with rejoicing on your part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame.”
    There is a sound out of the temple! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying what is deserved to his enemies.
    Before she began to come into labor pains she gave birth. Before birth pangs could come to her, she even gave deliverance to a male child. Who has heard of a thing like this? Who has seen things like these? Will a land be brought forth with labor pains in one day? Or will a nation be born at one time? For Zoin has come into labor pains as well as given birth to her sons.”

    Yes, they will be excluded in the name of God. Not knowing what is to come upon them.

    WFTW

    Edited by - Onetruesource on 13 August 2000 15:30:22

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    It seems that Seven got her reply in just before mine and I didn't see it. After reading the quote that she posted I have to say that I agree with that sentiment.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • tfs
    tfs

    Hi WFTW/"One":

    It was mentioned above by your "critics" that "credentials" were needed to be placed before them, BEFORE anyone would take this message you speak of, seriously. "Frenchy" said this, and it was "seconded" by other astute readers of scriptures among us here.

    My question to you is this,

    Do You Think Jesus Christ, during his 3 1/2 year ministry, presented the necessary "credentials" to his listening audience, to substantiate the validity, veracity and accuracy of his message? Did he present the "credentials"?

    The answer of course is yes.

    tTherefore, if he did present these necessary "credentials", then, WHY DID NOT THE PEOPLE, (ISRAEL) LISTEN, listen to "truth" when it is spoken to them? Why?

    "Credentials" or no "credentials" they simply did not listen. They did not listen to "truth." Why?

    Hmmmm... Perhaps, for the same "reason" they are not listening now on this board...perhaps?

    Are the people on this board, any more noble, any more spiritual, any more "loyal" to God, than those of ancient Israel, of Jesus' day...the ones Jesus encountered...would you say?

    Isn't it true, real lovers of truth, listen to truth, that's listen first, then, they "test the inspired expression" of truth, the worthiness of the message by using the Bible, scripures, before denouncing it, as 1 John. 4:1 recommends? Also, like Paul did, and the Beroeans. (Acts 17:2, 3, 11)

    I don't see any "testing" going on here... just a lot of condemning without Biblical substantiation to refute the things you have asserted. Identical to the Pharisees approach to, and evaluation, of Jesus' message.

    But, I'd appreciate your thoughts on this matter, please.

    Cordially,

    tfs

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    TFS: First of all, there were many that did listen in Jesus’ day or else we would not be having this discussion. You seem to choose not to recognize this.
    Second, as for the ‘testing’ of the Scriptures, all I have seen here is an attempt at applying/mis-applying Scripture to fit a contrived notion.
    Case in point,

    In Revelation 12, the woman… is about to expel a large group of high-level brothers all at one time. These are leading brothers within the organization that are fighting for reform. They see the wickedness in the organization and are trying to change things. They will be expelled. This is the birth of the male child. Jehovah will use this group, after they have been refined, to be the new heavens.

    And this you know how??

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    To One:

    I would like to share a “sacred secret” with you

    Who is revealing these 'sacred secrets' to you?

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Onetruesource
    Onetruesource

    Well tfs,
    I by no means have any credentials. But, I don’t think I need any. When Jesus did his witnessing, he did not have any credentials. The only thing he had was truth. In fact, that is why he said , “He that is from God, listens to the sayings of God.” John 8:47. And he said, “Everyone on the side of truth listens to my voice.” John 18:37. I am by no means anyone special, but I speak truth. To illustrate the situation of what is required in order to recognize truth, this is what Jesus said at John 10:24-27:

    “Therefore the Jews encircled him and began to say to him: “ How long are you to keep our souls in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us outspokenly.” Jesus answered them :” I told you, and yet you do not believe. The works that I am doing in the name of my father, these bear witness about me. But you do not believe, because you are none of my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

    You see, sheep within Gods flock does not need credentials. They recognized the voice of that one because of truth. A lover of truth recognizes truth from Gods word. Jesus intentionally did not reveal things to some because he knew they would not listen anyway. That is why he spoke in illustrations. If one cannot recognize the truth, then it is no hope for them.

    WFTW

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    One: You say that you don’t have any credentials. I’ll take you at your word for this. As for your statement that Jesus had no credentials I will have to point out that Jesus did indeed have credentials. Please re-read Jesus’ words at Matt 11:23. He reproached “ the cities in which most of his powerful works had taken place” on the basis of not accepting his message on the evidence of the “powerful works” that had taken place in them.
    Do you expect to be believed just because YOU believe it? Come on, now, I think I have had enough of that. On the basis of WHAT are we to believe you? Just because you say so?

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  • Seven
    Seven

    To Onetruesource and tfs, I forgot to welcome you both to the board. Welcome.

    7

    Edited by - SevenofNine on 13 August 2000 17:18:27

  • tfs
    tfs

    Hi Frenchy:

    First of all, there were many that did listen in Jesus’ day or else we would not be having this discussion. You seem to choose not to recognize this.
    Is that so. "Many," Hmmmm. No, I didn't recognize that fact.

    You see, here is what I previously recognized about Jesus' ministry...

    He fed 5,000 miraculously on one occasion. -- Luke 9:10-17

    But, only 120 were gathered at Pentecost in the upper room as footstep followers.

    So, where were the other "Israelites" that witnessed this miraculous, powerful work, the 5,000, or at least, the 4,880 that is, that he fed? Where were they?

    I also, recognized this, He raised the dead, on three (3) distinct, separate occasions, in FULL VIEW of other Israelites, witnesses,

    but only 120 gathered in the room at Pentecost

    However, I do seem to remember that there were some 1.1 MILLION Jews who were destroyed in 70 c.e. by the Roman armies, with another 97,000 taken captive. A complete decimation of that same disobedient nation, just as Jesus predicted for them. I also recognize that this fact, is related to us by Josephus, the Jewish historian.

    "Frenchy," I do believe you are greatly mistaken.

    The "MANY," you have referred were not among the Jewish nation at all. Because the overwhelming majority, the "many" of the Israelites, of Jesus' day, those that heard Jesus, DID NOT LISTEN TO JESUS at all. Not one bit. But, Only a "few".

    Sure they loved the miracles, the healings, and so on, but very few actually put faith in JESUS' MESSAGE OF TRUTH. His message was largely ignored by the nation of Israel.

    Jesus said of that nation, "go in through the narrow gate, because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and MANY are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and FEW are the ones finding it." -- Matt. 7:13, 14

    Thats a "few", that listened, of the Israelite nation, a "few", comparatively speaking, to the "many" that Jesus said who were headed for destruction, from that same nation.

    So, the "many," you must be referring to, then, are the ones that truly manifested faith, and obedience to God's Word, the "many," who really responded, the "gentile" converts. The ones who were originally, viewed as the "uninvited ones," to the feast. Yes, this "many," responded in swarms, by the 1,000s. It was they that showed the proper level of appreciate, faith, and obedience, totally unlike the disobedient, natural nation, of Ancient Israel, the ones who did not listen.

    This is why Jesus summed the matter up this way by saying:

    "This why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be TAKEN FROM YOU and given to a nation producing its fruits." -- Matt. 21:43

    The Israelite nation did not manifest faith in Jesus' message, so there was no "many" among them that did. Only a "few", just as Jesus said. So, you are greatly mistaken, sir.

    tfs

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