elders visit need advice from ex elders, any

by jurs 25 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Pathofthorns

  You are wasting your time. Even though it is your home, they will simply leave if you try to go on and on about false prophecies. I just hope you have really thought about your decision and the consequences and feel okay about that.

  As has been stated in the past, your DA letter is simply you giving them exactly what they want you to give them so they can shun you in good conscience and without legal recourse. You will make NO impression on them. A DA letter is only beneficial if you feel it will be for you PERSONALLY.

  Your elder's might be coming by to see if the DA letter is really your wish and might be giving you one last opportunity to change your mind. It might not be a bad idea to consider "changing your mind" stating that you were a "victim" of "apostate propaganda" on the internet and that you made a "terrible mistake". If they buy that I would just disappear.

  Your comments indicate you don't really know how the "system" really works. Writing a DA letter is generally a "first response" or a "knee-jerk" reaction to finding out the WT fraud. Given more time to weigh things out, many people change their minds and decide NOT to send in the letter.

  But whatever you decide to do, we wish you the best.

  Path
• 

  chester

  Jurs,

  Your comments indicate you don't really know how the "system" really works.

  
  I agree completely with what Path has said. They will not give the time to tell them anything about false prophecies and stuff.

  Best Regards
  Chester
• 

  JAVA

  Hello jurs,

  I agree with the many suggestions about having it at your home (your territory, not theirs), and have a hidden tape recorder. They'll not agree about a witness present, so why bother and raise a red flag? A tape recording of a JW Committee Meeting is always damaging because it objectively shows how weird the sect is. It won't help the outcome of the meeting, but it's great to use afterwards because it embarrasses the elders and Tower. (After all, that's what shunning tries to do to former members, so why not turn the tables on the perpetrators?)

  Don't waste time trying to prove the Tower's full of it using the Bible. Anyone can use the Bible to justify crazy beliefs, so you'll be spitting in the wind with that technique. You can point out some of the Tower's many flip-flops on various issues, but the elders will turn that around with the "light getting brighter" Watchtower mind-set, and fail to see false prophesies as, well you know, false prophesies (they only see that with other religions).

  Let them know you see many problems with the Watchtower, e.g., you don't wish to be part of an organization that controls members with threats of shunning, and you don't appreciate a group that shuns former members who has other thoughts about failed dates. Let them know you mean them no harm, and hope they are Christen enough to do the same, but anyone with a brain knows shunning is harmful (put the shame on them and the Tower where it belongs).

  Of course none of this will change the outcome of your meeting, but a tape recording of their bazaar Tower-thinking can be useful. Lots of luck furs; let us know how it turns out--and we would love seeing a transcript of the tape, that really ticks the Tower off!

  --JAVA

  ...counting time at the Coffee Shop
• 

  NoLongerAjw

  Wondering why wont they let you have someone with you? when they come to visit and set you straight so to speak.. i have'nt went to a meeting in 3 years.. i dont think there is anyway my hubby would let me sit in a room all alone with 3 elders.. are you saying he would not be able to be present? he just wouldnt want them to interigate me all by myself.. i went to the meetings for 13 years.. my hubby is not a jw.. just wondering..
• 

  jurs

  thanks for the advice everyone, when on the phone , i asked the elder if i could go over apostate literature. he said he'd go over my questions. he also said he wanted to make sure that i really meant what i wrote in my DA letter, wether it was emotional and impulsive jesture. i told him i meant it and i beleive its a cult . he still wants to come over and talk. your right about me having no idea how the system works and what their really after but i do know from my own personal experience as well as what i've read here that certain points , however small, i.e. the beard issue, can be put on the shelf but at some point those issues can turn to doubts. i want to bring up points not expecting to win them over but perhaps make them a little uncomfortable and perhaps one day my comments compounded with their own experiences might help them see it as a cult. jurs
• 

  jurs

  i forgot to add that the elder also told me i could have someone with me. he told me my husband and kids as well as anyone else can be there. jurs
• 

  Mulan

  I agree that you should NOT go into anything about their false predictions or really anything else doctrinally, that you know is wrong. It will turn them off. Remember how we were trained to react to that information?

  The one and only time elders called on us, for a shepherding call, before we quit, (MY husband was an elder at this time) they asked me about my lagging meeting attendance. I said I didn't feel like I belonged there or was welcome anymore, (I had been baptized for 40 years, from age 9) and that when my husband was working in Japan for two months, no one invited my 18 year old son, and me for dinner other than 'worldly' people I worked with, and then I was criticized for accepting the invite. A party was had by some of the sisters, for Pampered Chef (kitchen supplies) given by one of these elder's wife, and I wasn't included, and there was a retirement party for an old brother, and again my son and I were not invited, although the elder hosting the party called me during the party to see how we were doing with Dave gone. I could hear the party going on in the background. Anyway, when I told them all of that, they hung their heads and were very shamed. Then..... they changed the subject. Neat, huh? I gave up on them, at that moment, and realized they really did NOT care about me.

  I think a hidden tape recorder is great. Have your husband there, by all means.

  I suspect they may be there, to see if there is any cause to disfellowship you. It looks better to the Circuit overseer, when he comes around to have a df, rather than a da. I could be wrong, it's just a thought.

  Let us know how it goes!!
  Marilyn
• 

  slipnslidemaster

  I agree that you should have a witness there for you. You're husband is a nobrainer. NEVER go into a meeting with the elders alone. Second, the tape recorder is a must also. You will have an actually word for word record of what was said. Elders have the most amazing time "remembering" things accurately after the fact.

  In addition, nothing that you say will be of any consequence to them. You can try on any front that you want, prophecies, people, organization, etc. but it won't matter. The best you can hope for is that you may sow a seed that may be the straw that breaks an elders back one day but on THIS particular day it isn't.

  If you are determined to meet with the elders, remember to do it for yourself. Make sure you say what you need to say for yourself. Don't leave anything out and make sure that you aren't going to have any regrets later.

  This meeting is for you not for them. You need this meeting to provide closure for you.

  Good luck.

  Slipnslidemaster: "Men have become the tools of their tools."
  - Henry David Thoreau
• 

  LDH

  Jurs

  The only thing I would do would be to have my computer set up on the society's media web site, http://www.jw-media.org and go to the section where it says those who choose to cease their involvement are NOT SHUNNED.

  Ask them if they're all going to shun you?

  This web site may be news to him!

  Lisa
• 

  mustang

  Late breaking news:

  Read the 'NO MORE HARBORING PRIVATE IDEAS' thread. That especially goes for you Aaron/Kes. It is really getting polarized. Recall the 'unity at all cost' quote, guys. They now have the where-with-all to can (get rid of) you even IF YOU CAN PROVE THAT THEY ARE WRONG. So, the Bible is now a moot point. Follow the letter of the WT or you are history.

  Aaron, I agree w/ the others that you have no real JW roots. I'll have to dig up the old H2O quote from 1/JT/James: GIVE THEM NO FORUM. You are given about 2-3 minutes to state your doctrinal problem and then they STEAM-ROLLER YOU!!! All they want to do is 'adjust your thinking'.

  Aaron, it has become a 'tow the line or else' operation. It is all a 'LEGAL THING' now, anyway.

  Jurs, that is not to say that there is not some sincerity occasionally seen at this point. You may indeed have an instance of that, here, but I doubt it. They are probably just gathering to finish you off.

  For these reasons, here is the most appropriate DA'ing letter I have ever heard of: the DocBob "I ain't gonna DA" letter.

  *DA Letter w/Legalese

  [ HOURGLASS2 OUTPOST ] [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ FAQ ]

  Posted by Doc Bob [docbob] on September 26, 2000 at 18:42:27
  {Ya22knR/iw4GgUr52RakFCBZCmlcxk}:
  In Reply to: DA Letter w/Legalese posted by hypatia on September 25, 2000 at
  18:10:20:
  Hi Hypatia,
  I wrote most of the body of this a few years ago thinking it might come in handy someday. I actually sent it to my local body of elders after they invited me to meet with them to face charges of apostacy last December. I have not heard from then since. I have not heard that any announcements have been made regarding me.
  Bob
  ======================================
  I have decided that I will not formally disassociate myself from the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or from Jehovah’s Witnesses in general. I came to this decision for several reasons. First, there is nothing I see in the Bible that calls for a
  formal letter of disassociation in my situation, or any other. It seems to me that the provision of formal disassociation is a matter of convenience for the legal department of the Watchtower Society rather than serving any real religious purpose. It allows people to be pigeon-holed into nice neat little categories rather than dealing with the
  real issues involved. Also, I have no problem with the P___Congregation or its members. My disagreement is with certain actions, policies, teachings and writings contained in publications that are produced and in oral teachings promulgated either individually or collectively by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and it’s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. and the International Bible Students Association.

  The purpose of this letter is to clarify certain matters and to secure and protect what I consider basic human rights in dealing with agents of the multinational, multi-billion dollar Watchtower corporations.
  Since you have asked me to appear before a judicial committee to face charges of apostacy, there are a few things that I must ask for and which I feel must be clarified before I will even consider meeting with a judicial committee.

  1. I shall be notified in writing of the time, place and purpose of any meetings with a judicial committee.
  2. I shall be notified in writing of the exact purpose of the meetings.
  3. I shall be notified in writing exactly on whose behalf the judicial committee was convened and is acting: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.
  4. If any other agency other than the one for whom the judicial committee has informed me they are acting for is consulted, reported to, or allowed to have any bearing on the outcome of the judicial process, I will consider the judicial committee as acting in the their behalf.
  5. I shall be notified in writing as to my status as a member of any and all of the organizations for which the committee is acting or to which the committee will report.
  6. I insist that the judicial committee immediately cease, and in the future desist from any actions toward or against me in behalf of any corporation or organization of which I am not a member.
  7. I shall be notified in writing of any accusations against me, the names of persons making such accusations and the substance of any evidence against me.
  8. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and
  responsibilities involved in the judicial process.
  9. I shall be given sufficient time between notification of any meetings with a judicial committee and the time of the actual meeting to prepare a response to any accusations.
  10. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during all meetings between me and the judicial committee as an observer. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the judicial committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of Watchtower Bible and Tract
  Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.

  11. During the meetings with the judicial committee I and/or my observer will be allowed to take whatever notes we feel are necessary.

  Additionally, if the judicial committee takes any judicial action against me :

  12. I will not recognize any action taken by the judicial committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
  13. In this written communication the judicial committee must state exactly on whose behalf they have taken the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or
  any other agency not here named.
  14. If the judicial committee has stated that it is acting only for the
  P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the judicial committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies of reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.
  15. I may appeal any action taken by the judicial committee.
  16. Before I will meet with an appeal committee, that committee must notify me in writing of the names of all of the members of the appeal committee and who each one represents: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or it’s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here
  named
  17. There shall be no contact between the judicial committee and the appeal committee other than to inform them of the time and place of my meetings with them. If I determine that there is any contact, communication or attempt on the part of any of the members of the original judicial committee or anyone acting on their behalf to,
  in any way prejudice or sway the appeal committee, I will insist that a new appeal committee be formed.
  18. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and
  responsibilities involved in the appeal process.
  19. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during the all meetings between me and the appeal committee. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the appeal committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.
  20. During the meetings with the appeal committee I and/or my observer will take whatever notes we feel are necessary.
  21. I will not recognize any action taken by the appeal committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
  22. In this written communication the appeal committee must state exactly on whose behalf they are taking the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or
  any other agency not here named.
  23. If the appeal committee has stated that it is acting only for the P______Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the appeal committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies or reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.
  24. I understand that if I am disfellowshipped by the judicial committee and the disfellowshipping is upheld by the appeal committee that I am, at that point, no longer considered to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I also understand that it is necessary to make a brief announcement that I have been disfellowshipped. From then on, I will consider any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching;
  to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any of Jehovah’s Witnesses to treat me differently from any other person that is not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any present Jehovah’s Witnesses to shun or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or terminate or otherwise abrogate any lease, rental, mortgage, or any other legal agreement that I may presently have with them. I may consider such to be an infringement of
  free trade and may initiate appropriate legal action.
  25. I consider any communication between the members of the judicial committee and myself and the appeal committee and myself to be ecclesiastically privileged. Any attempt to reveal the substance or tone of those communications to any other person or group will be considered by me to be a breach of that privilege and may result in legal action. This includes any announcements beyond the fact of my
  disfellowshipping, speeches, talks, or any other communication, written or oral, public or private.

  I fully realize that you may be unwilling or that the Watchtower corporations will not allow you to comply with the preceding.
  I respectfully await your written response

  quoted from DocBob
  Mustang