by aud8 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Just as our Lord did not set up an "organized church," but walked from village to village declaring the good news about the kingdom in heaven, so also those who belong to him do not "belong" to an organized church, but go forth declaring good news about the kingdom IN heaven from village to village....etc..
Hallelujah! For once I agree with kes. Oh happy day!
Cheers,
Ozzie
"Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos
Ozzie, you're still acting like a dub, not answering the hard questions!!! (aud8's) As I'm still one, I'm allowed to avoid them. See ya, YT.
Now Younger Tom, be fair to me a sinner! I don't recall seeing aud*'s post when I responded to my dear colleague Kes.
OK so you want me to respond to aud8 in such a way that you think of only the Dubs. The text in question says nothing about an organisation. I don't feel compelled to attend the KH as if it were the only assembly of Christians in the area. As it happens, you know very well that you and I have grave doubts that true Christianity is to be found there. Christians are happy to gather together to praise and worship their leader Christ and the Father. I would suggest that each Christian makes his own choices as to where or with whom he associates to do this. You will find as you read Ray Franz's books that he hasn't 'joined' any church, but from what I understand meets in private homes with other Christians.
It has come to be my firm conviction that no organisation can claim to be the exclusive preserve of Jehovah or the Lord. I don't believe you can substantiate the Witness teaching that God is dealing through an organisation. We know full well what a stuff-up that organisation has gotten into. Rather, it's the individual who is to have an intimate relationship with his/her heavenly Father. My own friends say that they are Christians who happen to worship at such-and-such place.
The words of the apostle Paul say much about how the early self-governing churches were to conduct their affairs. But I don't see in Paul's writings a blueprint for an organisational setup. Do you? Perhaps you could enlighten us.
In short, aud8's comment is a repeat of the Dub interpretaion of the apostle Peter's words when he replied to Jeus,"Lord, whomshall we away to..." (John 6:68) Note again that he did not say "Where shall we go away to?", did he?
Now let me ask, do you find it satisfying spiritually to attend the Kingdom Hall? Could you find something that satisfies the spiritual needs of your family? I already know the answer, and I think you might too!
Cheers,
Ozzie
"Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos
Dear aud8,
Well then why does it say in the bible "Do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together"??
Notice it says do not forsake the GATHERING of ourselves. It does not say "do not forsake the MEETINGS that we gather for." Is there any record where apostles or "christians" SCHOOLED other christians. Nor there aren't. The people that the Christians taught, were only UNbelievers. Why? Because they all had an anointing, and that "anointing" alone taught them EVERYTHING so that NO MAN (apostle, elder, etc.) would be teaching them at all.
1 John 2:27
When Christians gathered, they did just that, gathered. They enjoyed each others company in an informal way. Talked, encouraged, upbuilded, etc. There was no "schedule" or no "meetings" by a "conductor." Its the same "TYPE" of gathering witnesses have at house-warmings, welcome home, receptions, etc. The only difference is, the Christians would just meet where ever and just associate with each other, enjoy each others company. No "speacial" occaision.
The writer of Hebrews said not to "forsake" this because there was GREAT persecution and it was very likely the days they had with each other were few. When Paul was in prision, he missed SO much the other brothers he wrote them with tears. The Hebrews had not yet been tested in that way. So while they had the time each other, they should spend it, enjoy each other, get to know each other. Love each other.
Also remember this happens ANYWHERE, not in a "pre-set" Hall. Jesus said:
"Where there are two OR three gathered together in my name, I am in their midst."
Matthew 18:20
So two people are enough. Three, four, however. It does NOT mean "the more people, the more likely Jesus is present."
It means two OR three are sufficient.
Peace,
Aaron
G'day all,
I think kes is on the right track, but maybe not quite right in saying that Christians met together merely to gather. There was teaching and instruction as well as praise, prayer and worship. And, of course, they gathered to eat together. I do agree though that their meetings were nothing like the modern-day meetings of JDubs. I quickly add that they were nothing like the services conducted in the mainstream churches. Nonetheless, the WTBTS is quite wrong in asserting that the JDubs serve God in the manner of the first-century Christians.
Two books which are most helpful on this matter are:
1. Going to Church in the First Century, written by Robert Banks and published by Christian Books Publishing House, Texas
2. Paul's Idea of Community, written by Robert Banks and published by Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan
Both books are not too large and well worth a read.
Cheers,
Ozzie
"Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos
aud8,
also remember the Ethiopian, when he was baptized, he WENT HIS WAY REJOICING.
He did not follow Peter or join and stay in Jerusalem where the others were.
aud8 has left the building??
peace to all,
Aaron
Well what about where the bible says you must go from house to house preaching the good news? Are true christians to randomly pick doors and head out preaching on their own? What exactly is the good news then?
Hi Aud8, glad you popped back in.
1. I've been looking, I cannot find the scripture to which you refer, that you must go from house to house preaching the good news. In fact, Paul wrote that not all Christians would have the evangelizing ability. Ephesians 4:11, "He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers". Not all would have that evangelizing ability, although they would bear witness as occasion arose.
2. Are true Christians to randomly pick doors and head out preaching? No. As a Christian, I'm sure you are confident that God would use the angels and holy spirit to create evangelizing opportunities. The door to door method is extremely inefficient and irritates householders and is tiresome to many JW's themselves. Christians only need to be alert to informal opportunities to share their faith.
3. What exactly is the good news? It's the good news about God's loving provision of salvation through Christ. The Christian Greek scriptures (if I'm not mistaken) contain many more references to the "Good news about Christ" than to the "Good news of the Kingdom". The good news about Jesus being God's loving provision for righteous hearted ones is the loving message that touches hearts.
GopherAlways do right; this will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)
The scripture to which I refer is the one in acts 20:20, evangelizing was done from door to door in this example. Also various scriptures suggest the Jehovah was a God of organization, setting up priests to keep order among the people.
Aud8
