Hello azaria,
: You seem to imply that I was dishonest.
Not really. Just that you're not being entirely upfront about your beliefs and/or agenda. In your first post you said, "I believe that Creation and Evolution can and do go hand in hand", but you didn't explain how that works. It doesn't ring true. You also raised a number metaphysical-sounding questions that implied you were looking for answers. But in the rest of this thread you gave various forms of the answer, "God did it." In my experience, when someone says that, then they think they already have all the answers they need, and so when they pose questions for non-believers, it's not to get answers but to challenge the non-beleivers.
: Right from the start I stated that I believed in God; that hasn't swayed. I started this post because of Trumangirl.
Ok.
: I thought it was very one-sided.
What? The responses you got on this thread? Or whatever threads Trumangirl was involved in?
: It seems to me that because of my "ignorance" that I really have no right to speak.
Are you stating this as a fact? Or is it more of a complaint that you've received some criticism? If it's the former, then I'll say that you have every right to post stuff here. By the same token, since this is a discussion board, other posters have every right to criticize what anyone posts. Also, if you really feel you're "ignorant", then perhaps you should educate yourself before posting on a topic you think you're "ignorant" about. If it's the latter, then you shouldn't complain about receiving criticism on a discussion board. For the record, I don't think you're ignorant.
: If a poster is tired of these threads the best would be not to respond to them.
True.
: In the big scheme of things I really don't know anything.
Nor does anyone else. But we're not entirely ignorant.
: I feel there's a huge arrogance when we do think we have the answers
Why? We certainly have answers about plenty of things. On big questions, like ultimate origins, there's no question that we're almost entirely ignorant.
: and I never claimed I did.
Yes you did: "God did it."
: I'm just trying to make sense of a few things and as I said before I am curious. God created (I believe) and our tiny and some not so tiny brains are trying to understand the how's and why's.
Ok.
: You say that my mind is made up and I won't consider the alternative.
The important thing is whether you think your mind is made up. If it is, then you won't consider alternatives.
: Likewise I feel that others here have also made up their minds and not consider the possibility of a God that created everything.
You're wrong about that. Most people on this board are ex-JWs and once believed in the God of the Bible and a lot of other things. But for any number of reasons, some good and some bad, they gave up on all that. Many of the posters, like me, have done extensive research into the question of the existence of God, of creation versus evolution, and plenty more besides. So I take some offense at your implication that I just made up my mind for dumb reasons and that's why I don't "consider the possibility of a God that created everything." I have considered this question -- extensively -- and have become agnostic as a result. I stated clearly in a previous post: "I leave open in my mind the question of ultimate origins."
: I have yet to see anyone answer the questions from my first post.
Most of the questions were much too nebulous, too touchy-feely to say much about. I'm an engineer, and deal with hard reality every day. Touchy-feely stuff doesn't cut it in engineering. In your 2nd post you said:
: I?m not really into remembering a lot of data. I?m more of a creative person, touchy, feely, believing in intuition,; not so much analytical. I do realize that there are different kinds of intelligence.
Nevertheless, since you seem to want some feedback, I'll give it a shot below.
: As for the couple of books recommended, how do you know that I won't consider reading them?
The tone of your 3rd post strongly suggests it to me. Also, you stated quite clearly that you're not into doing research, and you didn't even get into a big biology book that you own.
: Would you consider reading the ones I recommend?
Of course. But I've probably already read them. Give me your recommendations.
: Just to clarify, I'm not being confrontational. I realize that it's usually difficult to tell when we post here. If anything I feel that others can be very confrontational, but then again, it may not have been their intention. I do think that I have a right to state my views, just like you do.
No problem.
Now let me take a shot at answering your questions. I'll first say that most of them simply have no answers.
: Can you prove to me that the essence of your being exists,
I have no idea what that is.
: or are we strictly physical beings,
I certainly believe that. Modern biology has shown a good deal of the mechanics of the brain. Thought comes about from electrochemical interactions among brain neurons. It's incredibly complex, but still just a big pile of proteins interacting in amazing ways. When things go wrong, like the hormonal imbalances in women approaching menopause, and when the brain gets diseased as with Alzheimer's, the physio-chemical basis for brain function becomes especially evident.
: (controlled?) by chance,
You use that word "chance" a lot. I don't think you understand the concept as applied to evolution.
: by nature. The mechanics can be explained to a point but how do you explain spirituality,
First give your definition of spirituality, so we're both on the same page.
: the mind, to dream, to hope, to love, things that one can?t see? ; things that one can only see the effects of.
These are just brain functions, initiated and controlled by neuron interactions and sensory inputs. For example, a women who breathes in certain male pheromones gets turned on. There's nothing metaphysical going on here.
: What puzzles me is how some people can be so morally indignant about a wrong and yet not believe. Where does this moral indignation come from?
From a strictly atheistic evolutionary point of view, it comes from a long evolution in a social context. It's advantageous to the survival of a group for individuals not to engage in certain actions, like killing another group member on a whim. That explains, to a certain extent, why almost all human societies censure murderers. It also comes from our culture. We don't know how much "moral indignation" is a product of nature or nurture.
: Does chance care?
By "chance", I assume you mean "evolution by natural selection acting on chance mutations." If so, then indeed it cares in the sense that it's highly advantageous to survival of an individual in a group to refrain from certain behaviours that harm others in the group.
: Putting aside Provines view about right or wrong, I think that most people will agree that there is a right and wrong.
For the most part, sure. But there have been some threads discussing topics like, "Is Morality Absolute?" I think that most people agree that any behavior that unnecessarily harms others is morally wrong.
: Who decides what?s right, what?s wrong?
We do, by deciding what's too harmful to permit.
: We simply evolved and what works for a time is what is used and if it?s no longer useful it?s discarded?
Generally that would be true.
: Why does chance care if we care for one another, that we try to do the right thing?
Because of the advantages of group survival.
: Why does chance care about our survival? If each person wants to survive, where did he get that desire to survive?
You ought to read Richard Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene. He covers this a lot better than I could.
: We have a desire to live, to love, to create. That?s how God created us.
How do you reconcile this with your supposed acceptance of evolution?
: Chance doesn?t care if we create, if we love, if we survive.
Sure it cares about survival. That's what natural selection is all about.
: What about music, art, literature? What inspires these people to create beauty?
I have no idea. But I think that these things evolved over several million years of complex social interactions.
: Beauty in nature (created for no other purpose but for our enjoyment-flowers, birds, a snow flake),
How do you know that?
: a new born baby, the love for our children, family? Why do we have joy, agony, tears, laughter, pain, pleasure? Where does that desire come from?
Where do similar, but less intense, emotions come from in animals like chimpanzees and gorillas? Did God put them there?
: Why all the senses, taste, feel, see, hear? For no other reason than survival?
I'm sure that's what you'd say about their existence in animals.
: Yet we use all these senses for survival and pleasure.
Animals experience pleasure, too.
: All this is chance, all of life is one big cosmic accident, with no purpose?
Ah, there's that "purpose" thing so dear to the hearts of Christians. Why do you need some higher "purpose" to enjoy life?
: We are spiritual beings. Why should we be? What?s the point when all this is by chance?
If by spiritual, you mean "inclined to believe in a higher power", then who knows? Personally, I have no such inclination, having quit the JW cult many years ago. I think that this inclination is almost entirely a product of culture.
: Maybe some feel that without God they are free to do what they want.
Some do, some don't. I'm a good deal more concerned about my fellow man than I ever was when I believed in God. A God who would kill me if I didn't do what he said, which belief tends to make people "do the right thing" not because it's right, but because they'll be killed by God if they don't. Frankly, I despise such morally bankrupt people.
: I think the reverse is true.
What do you mean by "reverse"?
: We truly are then just puppets with absolutely no control over our destiny.
This conclusion doesn't follow from anything you've said. If we make decisions to treat our fellows nicely, based on how we'd like them to treat us (yeah, the Golden Rule is a Good Thing), then we certainly are not puppets and we do have some control over our lives. I'm not sure where you're going with this "destiny" thing.
: We are here, then we are not here.
Same with animals.
: Whatever feelings we do have is controlled by evolution.
What's your alternative? That they're controlled by God?
But you show a basic mistunderstanding here. Our ability to have feelings is a product of evolution, but our specific feelings are a product of our mental abilities and our environment.
: You can?t personally claim it as uniquely you. That?s the way I see it anyway.
Why not? Evolution is simply the mechanism by which we got here. It doesn't control everyday emotions or anything else.
: Why is that people all around the world have the same needs, the need to be loved, to love, to feel connected?
Because they're all cut from the same evolutionary cloth. They're all part of the same evolved population.
: Some will say it was necessary for survival.
So you do understand some of this. Why the pretending?
: Why the need to survive?
It just is. Why do bacteria engage in survival activities?
: So many questions. One more that never occurred to me before. If we evolved, at what point is this evolving business over and what decides it?
It never will be. It'll just go on at varying rates, until we go out of existence as a species.
: Something is in control. Could it be that God truly exists?
Could be. I don't consider it too likely, though.
In a later post, you mentioned something about planets and the solar system forming "by chance". But star systems by no means form by chance. They form according to certain physical laws, like gravity, that are only just now beginning to be understood. A large cloud of gas and dust begins collapsing due to turbulence, and continues collapsing and radiating energy until a star forms at the center and planets form around it. Special computer programs are now modeling this behavior. Stars are now being observed in the process of forming, such as in the Orion Nebula. You really need to educate yourself about these things. Not only are they intensely interesting in their own right, but understanding recent advances will help you answer your own questions.
AlanF
