Hi Ros...thanks again for Beacon pages!!!
But you should know by now that everything the WTS teaches is not what the Bible teaches. But you MIX the two. You take their interpretation and make it a straw man to make a Biblical point. That is, you use their argument to prove the 144,000 and the 1000 years are not literal. Thus I will explain how it can work, Biblically per the JIOR interpretation (i.e. "rebel" anointed ones hiding in the wilderness)...
The Watchtower prophecy has it that Christ + 144,000 saints will reign in heaven for 1000 years.
AND . . . they insist these numbers (144,000 and 1000) are literal numbers.
Christ and the 144,000 will rule in the earth not in heaven, for the 1000 years. That's #1.
So, if Christ returned in 1914, were 144,000 saints resurrected at that time?
Not according to the WT prophecy.
Per the Bible, Christ resurrects all before he returns, but back into the flesh. So whether Christ returned in 1914, 1934 or 1992, the resurrections would have taken place, but back into the flesh. They rule in the flesh with Christ when he "returns" again into the flesh for 1000 years. Then after Satan is released and killed and there's Judgment Day...then Christ and the 144K go to heaven.
Has the 1000-year reign begun? Not according to the WT prophecy. It begins immediately AFTER Armageddon.
Correct. I agree with this part. It begins after Armageddon.
Will some of the144,000 "saints" live through Armageddon into the New Earth, and thereafter die and be resurrected?
This is where they have it wrong! Those who have died and must be resurrected back into the flesh, will be resurrected before Christ returns himself into the flesh. Those of the anointed already alive will simply continue to live in the flesh since they have to be in the flesh for the 1000 years. Thus when they finally go to heaven, after the 1000 years and after Judgment Day, they will "all, together" be changed in a twinkling of an eye and put in incorruptible bodies. So there is no need for any anointed ones to die shortly after the millennium begins to join others in heaven. 2 Thessalonians 4 shows all will get their reward at the same time, those living at the time of the Christ's second coming and those who had died. That's because nobody goes to heaven until after Judgment day and after the millennium. That's how it works.
That used to be the doctrine. Is it still the view? (Especially since anyone who dies in Armageddon has no hope of a resurrection.)
This part of their view is Biblically irrelevant.
It is now 90 years after 1914.
So. Even if Christ did arrive in 1914, it's not the ARMAGEDDON date. There is a "short time" from when Satan is kicked out of Heaven, the same time Christ arrives and when the kingdom begins. Armageddon happens and then Satan is abyssed. The kingdom in heaven is set up and Satan is kicked out. So they are not the same event. You're starting to confuse the two events.
If Christ returned in 1914, he has been reigning 90 years and the millenium has not begun.
JWs believe that Christ "rules in the midst of his enemies" for a while before his kingdom begins to affect the earth. This is an accurate general reference. Did you miss their doctrinal point here?
If some of the 144,000 will not die and be resurrected until after Armageddon, they will not reign with Christ for a full 1000 years.
This is where you are in error, doctrinally. The 1000-year reign is a separate time period of reign beyond when Christ and the 144,000 begin to "reign". Thus you could say they have begun to "reign" ever since the Heavens were prepared and Satan was kicked out of heaven. But that is separate from the specific 1000 year reign. Plus they will continue to "reign" after the 1000 years, through when Satan is let loose and through the Judgment Day and forever afterward. So the 1000 years it not pertinent to Christ's reign after the kingdom is set up. There is an interval of time from the second coming and the millennium, it's when Satan is loose on the earth. Yet Christ is said to reign during this time.
Christ and those "saints" who were resurrected in 1914 (or were they supposed to be resurrected in 1919?) will have reigned for 1000 years plus 90 years plus however many years still remain until Armageddon.
Now that's correct. But you are focussing on a "limited 1000 years" when in fact, they all rule for longer than that and begin their technical rule before that. The Bible just says they rule for 1000 years after Armageddon before Satan is let loose again, that's all. Their reign does not begin and end with the millennium, it's jus a special, set-aside time that they rule.
For all their insistence that the 144,000 and 1000 years are literal numbers in prophecy, in no way can it be said in their teaching that Christ + 144,000 reigned for 1,000 years.
Actually, it is still quite possible, even by JW intepretation because nobody said they would be LIMITED to 1000 years nor that the 1000-year specific rule would begin at the second coming, which it does not and they don't say that. They say "after Armageddon" which is not the same as the "second coming."
Their own teaching denies the numbers are literal.
Your misunderstanding of their teaching is the problem here, in this case. They don't say what you are claiming they say.
QUESTION: If Christ returned in 1914, how has that affected the earth? What has changed? Weren't things supposed to get better?
Let's not put a specific date on the return and talk in general. The question is, what are we specifically to expect in some visible sign at the second coming? A good question. The Bible says that the kingdom would "not come with great observableness." Therefore, nothing extraordinary would occur. It says Christ will "come as a thief" and "in the clouds." Those are two more indications that his second coming would be secretive at first.
Thus the first, possibly critically recognizable sign that Christ has arrived would be the destruction of Babylon the Great. That is, when the UN confiscates the funds of the Illuminati in some sting operation, probably accusing them of world terrorism or espionage or something. THAT will be a widely visible sign that Armageddon has begun. But that happens after Christ has sealed the last saint and thus the door to the kingdom would be closed to those who had not already gotten in. It's like Noah's day. The skys were exactly the same during all that time Noah was preaching. Then for 7 days it got dark while the ice water canopy was being coverted to clouds prior to the rains and then it began to rain. When it rained then they knew Noah had prophesied correctly. But it was also too late. Likewise, when a clear sign occurs to everyone at which point in Biblical prophecy timeline we are in, when the Messiah is revealed to the world in general and comes from behind the clouds, it will be the "beacon" of the end of this world.
And that's why Christ say, "Keep on the WATCH!" You don't have to worry about keeping on the watch if Christ comes with a big noisy parade. You just snooze until the vibrations of those drums and the commotion wakes you up, then you join the parade, right? Not so. This is a second coming so quiet that if you're not awake, it might pass you by in the night, like a thief. Quitely. Secretly. Subtly.
JC
