all things were made through Him
( not idols though - eg. the jw god - that one's down to other people )
and without Him was nothing made that was made
Was Jesus the first creation of God ?
by enquirer 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
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enquirer
Thank you all so much for your replies - you have all been marvellous as always, given me some useful leads for my ongoing discussions. What an excellent site this is!
Enquirer.
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JosephMalik
all things were made through Him
( not idols though - eg. the jw god - that one's down to other people )
and without Him was nothing made that was made
Paduan,
I hear this all the time as if the expression "all things" means "everything." It does not! It only pertains to the things being discussed in the text and in this case such all things are human arrangements for maintaining order here on earth for which Christ takes responsibility. Verses must be understood in context and the context in this case does not include animals or even the planet itself. These verses are about our redemption, those saved by the blood of Christ and such ones do not include animals, plants or this planet.
Joseph
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zen nudist
first born of creation... he was born...there was no one birthed before him...
first born of the dead, he was raised from the dead to immortality first.... no one prior holds this
the bible is clear and EVERYONE agree that there is a FATHER and SON mentioned with regards to the relationship
of GOD and messiah...but what does SON mean? does it mean what we normally think it means? why use the term SON if it has nothing to do with sonship?
did Jesus use it to refer to son ship? my father and YOUR father? we are all brothers?
did Paul mean we are children of God as sons? heirs of God and joint heirs with christ?
while the term son in hebrew can often mean part of a group... to say Jesus was part of God would not be accurate because there would be no FATHER involved in such a group...but as the HEAD of that Group, which would violate the trinitarian concept that Jesus and his FATHER are co-equal... [how anyone could get the idea that any part of the bible teaches they are or ever were equal is beyond me. there are simply too many verses which clearly show otherwise.]
while I was a JW, I was still a skeptic and sat down one day and just started cataloguing every verse I could find in the NT that had Jesus and God mentioned together or Jesus and the father, etc...anything which showed their relationship.... I came up without about 125 verses, the vast majority were clearly showing a distinction not only in power and position but in other ways too, I suggest anyone who believes in the trinity do this and see for themselves instead of going by the standard trinitary brainwashing...namely being taught that a trinity exists and then mining out of context verses to see it....
JWs are not the only unitarians around.... unitarians go back to before the 325ce councils and persisted ever since....
modern day examples are tiny, but still around, like the christadelphians and the unitarian universalists...etc.
since I view all of the bible as jewish mythology, I have no ulterior motive to see one over the other but as a purely academic excersize I am mystified at how many believe so blindly in something that is clearly NOT a bible teaching in any way shape nor form.
having said that I do acknowledge a tiny fraction of confusing verses which seem to support the trinity, but I would point out that NONE of those verses, NOT ONE is in context someone explaining the trinity to anyone else...NOT ONE of them is even teaching the nature of God to anyone....all of them are statements in passing regarding something else more important to the author.
you will not find a single verse in the entire bible which, in context, is about teaching the trinity to anyone.
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A Paduan
you will not find a single verse in the entire bible which, in context, is about teaching the trinity to anyone
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But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher (the Spirit) , and you are all brethren.
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.
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JosephMalik
you will not find a single verse in the entire bible which, in context, is about teaching the trinity to anyone
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But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher (the Spirit) , and you are all brethren.
And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.
Paduan,
Nice verse but no trinity is taught by it. Now if you would like to break it down and explain it point by point and show us that it teaches the Trinity Doctrine somehow then perhaps there would be something to discuss, but as it stands, you have not proven your point except for the fact that the Bible contains verses that use words such as spirit, Father and Christ. Do not forget that the Christ stands for the human master that will rule over us in the Kingdom here on earth.
Joseph
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A Paduan
you have not proven your point except for the fact that the Bible contains verses that use words such as spirit, Father and Christ.
The verse above is not simply "a bible verse that contains certain words" - it is a teaching (in context) about who is to be followed and looked to - delivered by Jesus.
... you have one Teacher (the Spirit), one Father (in Heaven) and one Master (Lord).
That 's what I heard.
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JosephMalik
The verse above is not simply "a bible verse that contains certain words" - it is a teaching (in context) about who is to be followed and looked to - delivered by Jesus.
Paduan,
If this is a teaching delivered by Jesus as you claim then why did our Lord not teach this exact same thing (with the word (spirit) included) in all translations of his words in the Bible? Why is it a teaching that appears only in your Bible version? Look at a few other translations and explain to us why they are wrong and you are right?
Matt 23:8 (AV) But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
NIVUS 8 "But you are not to be called ?Rabbi,? for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ?father,? for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called ?teacher,? for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
NAS95 .8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
And how do you arrive at a context that describes and even proves the Nature of God as in the Trinity Doctrine when our deeds, honor or place in the faith is under discussion?
Joseph
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robertdelre
please read thread "a plee to jw's" I think you will find your answer to your very important question.
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Holey_Cheeses*King_of_the juice.
No, no, no........no, no, NO! All wrong.
god created cheeses first. Left unrefrigerated for seven days mould began to develop. From this bacteria life as we now know it began to develop and flourish.
cheeses - an oldie, but not mouldy.