are great crowd jehovah's witnesses?

by peacefulpete 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  NeonMadman

  The watchtower is a document of corporation. Therefore they are an amaterial entity. How in heck does this scripture apply? Are we to storm some office building in new york, and rip up a piece of paper? BTW arent christian free from the rules of the OT?

  Technically, it is not the Watchtower to whom this scripture (Deut. 18:20-22) can be applied, but the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Though the terms are often used interchangeably (since the physical organization and the "spiritual" one are closely intertwined), there is a technical difference. The text in question is the Biblical definition of a false prophet, and can reasonably be applied to any entity that claims to be a prophet of God. The WTS has made such a claim regarding the organization on numerous occasions, perhaps one of the best known being in the April 1, 1972 Watchtower magazine:

  *** w72 4/1 p. 197 ?They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them? ***

  A third way of coming to know Jehovah God is through his representatives. In ancient times he sent prophets as his special messengers. While these men foretold things to come, they also served the people by telling them of God?s will for them at that time, often also warning them of dangers and calamities. People today can view the creative works. They have at hand the Bible, but it is little read or understood. So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?

  IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"

  These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? The clergy of the so-called "Christian" nations hold themselves before the people as being the ones commissioned to speak for God. But, as pointed out in the previous issue of this magazine, they have failed God and failed as proclaimers of his kingdom by approving a man-made political organization, the League of Nations (now the United Nations), as "the political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth."

  However, Jehovah did not let the people of Christendom, as led by the clergy, go without being warned that the League was a counterfeit substitute for the real kingdom of God. He had a "prophet" to warn them. This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah?s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined and assisted in their commissioned work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened to their message with belief.

  On other occasions, Watchtower publications have presented their own ideas as originating with God, for example when the prediction about the generation of 1914 was said to be "the Creator's promise" and "Jehovah's prophetic word through Christ Jesus." One who makes predictions in God's name that do not come true is clearly condemned by Deut 18:20-22.

  Now, it is true, as you point out, that Christians are not under the old covenant. No administration of death would be carried out today against one who proved to be a false prophet, as would have been the case in ancient Israel. However, Jesus was explicit in predicting the rise of false prophets, and telling us to beware of them. (Matthew 24:24; 15:7-20) So persons seeking to follow Christ must at least avoid giving their allegiance to groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses, who clearly fit the description. Jesus said we would know them by their fruits, and the fruits produced by Jehovah's Witnesses have been a series of false prophecies over the entire course of their history.

  Also, they focus to a great degree on devotion to the organization as a channel being used by God (though it is clear from their false prophecies that God is not using them at all). In doing so, they effectively qualify as false prophets under the further definition given at Deut. 13:1-5, namely the prophet who tries to lead the people to follow other gods. Again, under the old covenant, such a prophet was to be put to death. While the death penalty does not apply today, it would be the height of foolishness to actually follow such a person or organization.
• 

  garybuss

  XQ, A corporation IS an entity like a person. A corporation is a virtual person. It can do anything in business that a person can do, it's just a firewall to protect the actual people running it from liability and often from taxation. It also provides anonymity and anonymity is a desirable benefit for the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation.
  
  Your topic is - Is Corporation a Biblical concept? Of course it is not, and religion as a business is not a Jewish or Greek idea of antiquity either. Book publishing is certainly not Biblical . . . it is never mentioned once. Business is a capitalistic idea and it has no Biblical links with faith or worship. We were sold on the idea that God is a capitalist, has a book binding and real estate business in the United States (not Palestine), and appreciated old men writing error in his name. Sold by the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation.
  
  The reason they sell themselves so hard is they KNOW they are operating on a preposterous idea and on an outrageous claim.
  
  
  
• 

  bavman

  it is true we are not under the ot anymore, however, it still holds a lot of weight w/ dubs(they have turned back the clock on christianity). i believe there are still principles w/in it which can be helpful as well. recently, i brought up the scripture in deuteronomy to 2 elders. i told them i was bothered by the "predictions" which did not prove true (even as recently as the 89' wt). of course they shrugged it off. i told them it should be considered more serious than that when considering what deuteronomy had to say about "false prophets". they simply ignored me & changed the subject.

  bavman
• 

  TallTexan

  Blondie...

  As always, great information. I didn't know that about the GC not being invited to the Memorial in the 'good old days'. Glad to know that no hierarchy exists in the WTS..
• 

  XQsThaiPoes

  Your topic is - Is Corporation a Biblical concept? Of course it is not, and religion as a business is not a Jewish or Greek idea of antiquity either. Book publishing is certainly not Biblical . . . it is never mentioned once. Business is a capitalistic idea and it has no Biblical links with faith or worship. We were sold on the idea that God is a capitalist, has a book binding and real estate business in the United States (not Palestine), and appreciated old men writing error in his name. Sold by the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation.
  

  Gary why are you the only one that ever gets my points?

  I think too many ex-jws are in the system sorta speak (oddly I am still a JW yet I am out of the system). I am pretty sure a false prophet in matthew was not refering to a book and hotel company no more than the beast in revelations is the united nations.

  While I do not think JWs is a cult it is not a real religion. It is more of a theoretical political party. Look at the JW baptism questions they are very non-specific compared to a traditional christian baptism. A person could take them arguably with out changing their religion simular to a jewish baptism.

  Back to the point you guys need to realize you have be tricked the watchtower is not a person. None of the things in the bible apply to it. All those "false prophets" that you hate so much are long dead. Thats why they took the names off the magazines not "to prevent undue attention to the writer" but to make you think the watchtower is a real person when it is not. It is just a brand name.
• 

  NeonMadman

  Back to the point you guys need to realize you have be tricked the watchtower is not a person. None of the things in the bible apply to it. All those "false prophets" that you hate so much are long dead.

  So I guess you just skipped right over my earlier post, where I pointed out that ANY entity that makes a claim to be a prophet can, by definition, also be a false prophet (if it meets the criteria)? As I cited above, the Watchtower has claimed that Jehovah's Witnesses, as a group, act as God's prophet. If a group can act as a prophet, then it can also act as a false prophet, and the Biblical proscriptions would apply.

  And as far as the "false prophets" being dead, there are certainly still living members of the governing body who were responsible for promoting the false teaching about the 1914 generation. And the organization itself - which is the real false prophet we are talking about - continues to this day.

  In any event, we could split hairs all day long about what is a person and which entities can be prophets or false prophets - the point is that if we accept the definitions advanced by Jehovah's Witnesses themselves, the historical evidence shows that they, as a group, are a false prophet. Why would anyone want to give their allegiance to a group that is so easily condemned out of its own mouth?
• 

  NeonMadman

  Look at the JW baptism questions they are very non-specific compared to a traditional christian baptism. A person could take them arguably with out changing their religion simular to a jewish baptism.

  Look at baptism question #2 (post-1985 version):

  Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

  Do you really consider that to be non-specific, and a question that one could sincerely answer without changing his religion?
• 

  XQsThaiPoes

  Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

  Yes it is non specific who exactly is a "jehovah's witness" in association with? What is a "spirit directed organization"? If the organization is God's that means he owns it yet on this planet there is no credible entity that actually is documented to be owned by God.
• 

  XQsThaiPoes

  Technically, it is not the Watchtower to whom this scripture (Deut. 18:20-22) can be applied, but the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Though the terms are often used interchangeably (since the physical organization and the "spiritual" one are closely intertwined), there is a technical difference. The text in question is the Biblical definition of a false prophet, and can reasonably be applied to any entity that claims to be a prophet of God. The WTS has made such a claim regarding the organization on numerous occasions, perhaps one of the best known being in the April 1, 1972 Watchtower magazine:

  Hmm does that scripture apply to the religious order of jehovah's witnesses or the christian congregation of jehovah's witnesses?

  You can believe what you want but you are saying an oppion collum by a book campany in new york is a false prophet. And some religion that distributes this editorial is a false prophet. Not a person mind you but a loose group of annonymous people that happend to break their own rules on what makes you elligible to be a prophet (such as joining the UN).

  i can't follow you. I see theology in dollars and cents. I can't see how you can toss a religion or a corporation into a lake of fire. I may be able to stretch and say whom ever wrote it but then that violates free speach. It also calls to question things that certian people said in the bible that never happend.
• 

  NeonMadman

  Hmm does that scripture apply to the religious order of jehovah's witnesses or the christian congregation of jehovah's witnesses?

  I'm beginning to suspect that you are deliberately playing dumb here...

  It applies to whatever entity was intended by the April 1, 1972 Watchtower, when it said, " So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?...These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?... It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah?s Christian witnesses." Now specifically what organization does that refer to? I'd say the one that the JW's themselves mean when they refer to "God's organization." At least, that seems to be the intent of the quotation. Whatever that organization is, is what qualifies as a false prophet by their own definition.

  Deuteronomy 18 is not specific in saying that a prophet must be a single human being. Verse 22 reads, " When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or prove true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him." Now, certainly, in ancient times without mass communication, it is unlikely that a prophet could have been any entity other than a human being. But in our time, it has become possible for a religious group, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, to set itself up as God's sole channel of communication to the world. When such a group makes the claim of being a prophet (as the JWs have), it is certainly subject to the judgment of being a false prophet, if it draws followers toward "other gods" or if its predictions, made in God's name, do not come to pass.

  The point really is not whether a group can be considered a prophet in a strictly scriptural sense; the point is that the JWs as a group DO make the claim of being such, and therefore, evaluating them by their own measuring stick, they are seen to fall short. If nothing else is proven by the exercise, it demonstrates that they do not speak for God in any capacity.

  Yes it is non specific who exactly is a "jehovah's witness" in association with? What is a "spirit directed organization"? If the organization is God's that means he owns it yet on this planet there is no credible entity that actually is documented to be owned by God.

  You'd have to ask them, it's their terminology, not mine. You can attempt to make the whole thing nebulous and non-meaningful by ignoring the context in which that question is asked, but when candidates are lined up to be baptized as Jehovah's Witnesses, both they and the one asking the questions know very well what organization they are declaring themselves to be members of (as, I suspect, you do too). I'd agree that said organization has nothing to do with God, but that is irrelevant. No one could accept the wording of that question as being generic - a Baptist, Catholic or Jew could not sincerely answer that question in the affirmative without seriously compromising his beliefs, particularly if the ones asking it were themselves JWs with their allegiance to what they consider to be "God's spirit-directed organization".