Only possible things happen. Is free choice an illusion?

by Terry 25 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Pole

  Terry:

  Is free choice an illusion? Mathematicians will tell you there really is no such things as "random". You cannot program a computer to generate an actual "random" number. There is always an algorithm underlying it. Randomness is our ignorance of the nature of inevitable consequent events.

  Do you mean that "mathematicians" say that there is no randomness in nature? 
  
  Or do they simply say that randomness cannot be simulated by (discrete) computational algorithms?
  
  I think it'd be nice if you clarified this point, because your main question has to do with the "real" 

  world ("is free choice an illusion"), but you seem to be using an example from the world of computation to illustrate this argument.
  
  
  Pole
• 

  dh

  illusion is a nicer word than i would use.

  i would say 'free choice is a joke & a token gesture' because as humans, in physical bodies, our will can never be free. if my will says i can fly, and i want to fly, so i jump, the reality is gravity, and i will go splat. so i do not consider the choice making that we humans are capeable of as anything more than a token gesture, freedom within a constrained and controlled environment.

  a fly is free in a killing jar. a lion is free in a cage. a human is free within the constraints of the current society and the entire physical world. the mind however can never be free because the things IT can realise are trapped inside the physical.

  imo: the freedom we have is bullshit, BUT i acknowledge that the freedom i have in the cage is more than some people have, and less than other, BUT even the richest and happiest are still in the killing jar.
• 

  hooberus

  According to materialist theology (nature is all that there is) it would seem to be that we are really no more than biological robots, our brain being a biological computer responding to external imputs from our environment. Free choice being merely an illusion. Our inherited dna and environment together controling us, rather than we ourselves being in control. However a spiritual dimension in addition to the material one would allow for our soul to have an influence over our body, thus with the possibility of true decision making ability with us.
• 

  Pole

  I've had a nice discussion about determinacy with zen nudist, and others here (in the context of prophecies) :

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/75682/1.ashx

  Let me just repost what I think best explains the issue of determinacy in the physical universe.

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  Is the universe a "chaotic-deterministic" system, one in which a sort of randomness and a sort of determinacy can occur at the same time?

  One definition of chaotic systems goes like this "chaotic systems are ones in which an arbitrarily small difference in the initial conditions can produce arbitrarily large differences in later states."

  The classic example is that of the supposedly deterministic atmosphere of our planet. In the atmosphere the flapping of a butterfly at one point may condition the occurring of a storm at a later stage.

  However, even if the system is deterministic in principle, it's unpredictable in practice, because however precise the measurement of the possible causes you use, there can always be some minute factors which escape your analysis, but which may amount to something really decisive.

  For instance, you may be able to track every single butterfly in the atmosphere, but you can't track all the mosquitos. Once you factor in mosquitos, you still disregard bacteria, and so on and so forth. So even if the atmosphere is deterministic, it's still unpredictable.

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  So what? So even it the universe is deterministic, even if all events are always the result of endless chains of other events, life is still fun, because we will never ever be able to predict too much. Which gives us a pretty realistic impression of being able to decide.

  Of course such a view is based on a rather simplistic form of mechanics and it desregards the kind of indeterminacies you find in quantum physics, but I like it anyway.
• 

  avengers

  Should I stay or should I go?
• 

  myauntfanny

  onacruse

  I tend to believe in fate AND free choice, even though I know it's a paradox (but I love paradoxes). We do have our natures, but we can choose to go against our natures

  I disagree; our nature is what it is, and there's only futility in fighting against it.

  I suspect we really don't disagree, because I also think it's futile to fight your nature. Our nature fights back and it seems to me we usually lose, although I can't speak for others really. But we often try, and isn't the thing in us that makes us TRY to go against our natures something we might identify as free will?

  Edited to add name
• 

  funkyderek

  Every effect known in the universe has a cause. This includes every action we may perform, and every thought we may think. We may "choose to go against our nature" but the "choice" is really a series of neurons firing in response to a particular stimulus. If our thoughts and actions are caused, then there is no free will.

  But what about quantum events that can be uncaused? If a truly random event can occur, and can occur in the human brain, then some of our thoughts and actions could be uncaused. This hardly qualifies as free will, though.

  I really can't see a way around this dilemma. Either our actions are caused and deterministic, or uncaused and random. I can't see a third option.
• 

  jgnat

  I know I come across as a well-read, deep intellectual sometimes, but....

  I forget the word for it, but this is a milleniums-long classic argument; perhaps you can refresh my memory? LOL

  I really don't know! Most of my ponderings about God I have done on my own, with no reading at all aside from comics, the bible, Albert Schweitzer, and Jean Vanier. A watchtower study lead me to an existentialist site once, which I found absolutely fascinating. Otherwise I am an intellectual innocent. I may have stumbled in to a black hole of an argument here, but I am unaware of the logical pitfalls. Yet. I figure, based on my observation, God must have some limitations, even if they are self-imposed. Otherwise, I would expect Him to act more often.
• 

  myelaine

  dear auntfanny,

  If you love paradoxes and tend to believe in fate and free choice why can't you see the paradoxes in:

  god-thingy - TRUE GOD

  not knowing - all-knowing

  not necessarily all good - All Good

  maybe just is things - TRUE GOD

  Think about what you are saying. Make a choice.

  love michelle
• 

  seattleniceguy

  Every effect known in the universe has a cause. This includes every action we may perform, and every thought we may think. We may "choose to go against our nature" but the "choice" is really a series of neurons firing in response to a particular stimulus. If our thoughts and actions are caused, then there is no free will.

  I guess this is really the crux of the argument. Either you believe in a universe where things happen for a reason, or you don't. I happen to agree with that strongly. If effects have causes, then every micro-decision we make is a result of a domino-effect of gates flipping open and shut in our brain, leading to a single state that would be possible to deterministically predict given the input state.

  It is difficult to accept, though, because the illusion of control is so strong. But I suppose we have accepted things that are difficult before. I will need to think some more about this. Thanks for the interesting thread!

  SNG