No Bibles or Miracles for Me!

by Farkel 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    I personally think if there was a God-appointed angel to do the translation, he would go for the ?reader-oriented approach?. He'd keep it simple and modern, so that ?the lowliest farmer? can understand the most intricate prophecies. This would mean God would have to send another angel every 100 years or so.

    This would imply that the "angel translator" has no doubt as to the meaning of the text... which is, of course, not the case of any human translator.

    Sounds like a good practical argument for a (relatively) "text-oriented" translation...

  • Pole
    Pole

    Narkissos,

    Sounds like a good practical argument for a (relatively) "text-oriented" translation...

    With the emphasis put on "relatively"

    Otherwise you commit of a rookie translation fallacy: you depend on the source language literal meaning, because it makes you feel safer when you don't fully understand the source text. I mean you don't understand but maybe the target language readers will???

    So you throw the burden of interpretation on the readers' shoulders.Too often it's just to heavy to lift...

    Either way God pretty much shot his foot at the Tower of Babel...

    Pole

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan
    If God appeared to me personally and told me something, it would be a revelation. But, if I told the exact same thing to you, it would not be a revelation. It would be a STORY or a relating of a revelation.

    Yes - and even more obscuring where people incorrectly use language - eg "jealousy" instead of "envy"; "worship" instead of "paying homage"; and on and on it goes

    You would have no way of knowing to a certainty that God told me what I said He told me.

    I don't agree - If someone said "your dad said this or that", I'd 'know' if you were bullshitting.

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    God works in mysterious ways Farkel...he beats me to every Motel room I've ever stayed at and sticks a bible in the dresser drawer...doh!..how does he do that.

    He is all powerful but can't prevent his name from being left out in the NT...I still think it's Howard be thy name.

  • greven
    greven

    Farkel,

    Your piece echos the prime reasons cited by Thomas Paine (in his Age of Reason) why he couldn't accept the bible as the word of God. In fact he states that if it is inspired then surely, it must have been by a demon. Anyway, you put his words into a modern, easy to read and well argued form. Kudos for that! TP is one of my heroes...

    Greven

  • gumby
    gumby
    How unreasonable then would it be to assume that people over the centures would alter, add to, or delete from a genuinely holy book if they could benefit by so doing?

    You wouldn't even have to assume it because it's fact. All one has to do is do a study on how the bible canon was formed and they'll find some books were discarded from the canon for centuries, then added. Others were rejected right off the bat, then ceturies later added.

    If god had a hand in the bible canon......there would be no discarding, or adding.....unless god is so pathetically dumb he can't make up his mind.

    As for the N.T........there is no reference in the bible in which god commanded men to record it. It simply says in Timothy that all scripture is inspired of god, yet when he said that, the canon hadn't been completed.

    Gumby

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Greven,

    : TP is one of my heroes...

    In fact, my piece was inspired by Paine. He's one of my heros, too.

    Farkel

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Otherwise you commit of a rookie translation fallacy: you depend on the source language literal meaning, because it makes you feel safer when you don't fully understand the source text. I mean you don't understand but maybe the target language readers will???

    So you throw the burden of interpretation on the readers' shoulders.Too often it's just to heavy to lift...

    Either way God pretty much shot his foot at the Tower of Babel...

    Pole,

    You remind me of a number of discussions I used to have with UBS linguists when Nida's "dynamic (or functional) equivalence theory" was THE absolute scientific theory of translation to them -- but the pendulum has dramatically swinged back since.

    The main problem in the field of Bible translation, I guess, lies in the assumption that each text has only one meaning. Which I would call semantical positivism, or rather reductionism.

    This is especially dubious in the Bible due to the importance of multiple intertextuality. Any Hebrew sentence may have a lot of meanings in view of the contextual scope you take into account. Such as: the sentence itself (which may be originally borrowed from a quite different context); the traditional story or pericope in which it is set, with (or without) its possible developments and additions; the book as a whole; the Hebrew Bible as a whole; the Christian Bible. According to the contextual scope you choose to focus on the meaning (and translation) will differ: for instance, in the same phrase 'èlohim may mean "gods" in the context of the original story but "God" from the standpoint of the whole book.

    The so-called "reader-oriented" translations are often "missionary" translations, which tend to produce a "simplified Bible" which suits the sponsors' creed rather than the Bible texts themselves with their overwhelming complexity. Literal renderings (at least when they are not mistranslations) are the common root the reader has to come back to so as to understand, if possible, how and why different meanings depart or derive from one another. That's why the "peritext" (and especially translation footnotes) has an increasing role in any modern translation.

    Actually I believe that writers, translators and readers do share in the same endless drift of interpretation. I like Derrida's concept of différance, which is part of the very process of writing. What is utterly lost in this view is the fundamentalistic idea of "authority". Yes from the very beginning "God", or the Logos, shot his foot as you said.

  • Valis
    Valis

    Farkel, this might not be exactly where you are going, but I got it out of this month's Atlantic Monthly and thought I would share it. I can take it off if it seems to be spamming your thread..I can't link to it cuz you have to be a subscriber..just lemme know.

    Innocent Bystander

    The Next Testament
    If the Bible were being compiled for the first time right now, what would we put in it? Making the case for a NEW New Revised Standard Version

    by Cullen Murphy

    .....

    T he facts of the case are familiar to almost everyone. A few months ago, as winter was setting in, Judge Roy Moore, the chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court, was removed from office for his refusal to heed a federal court order. U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson had instructed Moore to clear the state judicial building's rotunda of a 2.6-ton granite monument to the Ten Commandments, arguing that the monument violated the constitutional principle of separation of Church and State. The monument had been placed in the rotunda by Moore in 2001, and he had ignored all entreaties to get rid of it.

    The saga of "Roy's Rock" followed a predictable pattern. Liberal and secular groups railed against the intrusion of an overtly religious symbol into the highest state court in Alabama. Moore's supporters argued that the Ten Commandments broadly represent "the moral foundation of law." As the controversy raged, atheists asked to have a monument of their own placed in the court's rotunda: a statue of an atom. Judge Moore turned them down (though there would have been more than enough room for a life-size rendition).

    Well, the battle is over now. What remains, as always, is the double life the Bible leads. On the one hand, it is obviously a religious document?for believers, either literally or "in some sense" (as a squirrelly Anglican might have it) the very word of God. On the other hand, it is a foundational text of our culture, an artifact that has shaped even secular aspects of Western civilization.

    What pretty much everyone agrees on is that whatever its nature, the Bible is a collection of many bits of writing, representing many kinds of literature, and that its various pieces came into existence at different moments over more than a millennium. As the Ten Commandments case sputtered on, I began to indulge a fantasy. Suppose a committee were formed and given this charge: select a collection of texts in English, written over a period of centuries, that somehow fulfills the same functions as the books of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament?the Next Testament, it could be called. What would be in such a collection? To be clear: the charge would be not to compile some new "canon"?some kind of Great Books course?but, rather, to assemble the raw materials for something that would have the same cultural feel a few thousand years hence that the Bible has now.

    S tart with, say, the Book of Genesis?the classic creation story. Scholars explain that the book as we know it is probably an intertwining of work from three main ancient sources?one author designated J (the "Jahwist" or "Yahwist" source, because this writer refers to God as YHWH), the second designated E (because this writer refers to God as Elohim), and the third designated P (the priestly source). The creation story in our new, modern Bible might be woven from sources known as W, H, and D. W would refer to the physicist Steven Weinberg's The First Three Minutes, an account of the Big Bang. H would refer to Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time. W and H have plenty of the requisite awe, menace, and wonder, and although both eschew theology, they have things to say about meaning. (From W: "The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless.")

    The oldest of the sources for the new Genesis, D, would be Charles Darwin's The Origin of Species. D is by far the most humane of the three writers?warm, observant, a superb anecdotalist, similar in some respects to the old Bible's J. And he would provide knotty issues for future scholars to argue over. For instance, which version of Origin's last sentence should be accepted as orthodox? Should it be the first edition's "There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been Originally breathed into a few forms or into one ..."? Or the second edition's version, in which after the word "breathed" D inserted the words "by the Creator"?

    The biblical books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are largely collections of laws, rituals, and recommended practices?the ingredients of a coherent social order. The Next Testament version could be fashioned from several sources?Jane Brody's Good Food Book and The Joy of Sex, perhaps, but also the Internal Revenue Service's Form 1040 information booklet, The Rules, the U.S. Army's Ranger Handbook, the columns of Ann Landers, and the Mayflower Compact.

    One-for-one analogues of biblical books come to mind for some portions of the Next Testament. In the curious book that bears his name, Jonah is engulfed in a mysterious experience and emerges transformed. Would Through the Looking-Glass or The Wonderful Wizard of Oz fit the bill? The erotically charged poetry of the Song of Songs?said to be the book most frequently copied in medieval monasteries?finds an equivalent in the Sonnets of William Shakespeare. A possible replacement candidate for the entire Book of Psalms would be the poems of Emily Dickinson. Dickinson is more taut and reserved than the psalmodist, to put it mildly, but many of the same themes (loss, solace, searching engagement with the divine) are there.

    The Book of Proverbs is traditionally ascribed to Solomon, though it is really an amalgam of sayings ("Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler") by many sages. In the Next Testament one could capture something of its spirit with Benjamin Franklin's Poor Richard's Almanack. ("Search others for their virtues, thyself for thy vices.") But to cater to our own era's contradictory taste for the bitterly cynical and the vapidly inspirational, one probably ought to stir in at least a few apothegms from Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary and Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet.

    As for the books of the (real) prophets, the Next Testament could have a Book of Martin (for the speeches of Martin Luther King Jr.), a Book of Primo (for Primo Levi's memoir Survival in Auschwitz), and a Book of Edmund (for Edmund Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France, which glimpsed the dangers of utopian faith). There could be a Book of Rachel (for Rachel Carson's Silent Spring), and a Book of Aldous (for Aldous Huxley's Brave New World).

    The Book of Job is a category unto itself: a huge swath of contemporary literature implicitly evokes Job?be it the Job who accepted his fate as the Lord cast woe upon him or, more strikingly, the Job who angrily challenged the Lord and His justice. The problem here is not a dearth of analogues but a torrent of them: the works of Dostoyevsky, Kafka, Koestler, Wiesel.

    Job, of course, is a book of the Hebrew Bible, notwithstanding the jaunty affirmation by Howard Dean, as he sought to show off his scriptural savvy in advance of the southern primaries, that it was his favorite book of the New Testament. As for the actual New Testament books, finding analogues would take some thinking.

    Only one seems straightforward. The mystifying and disturbing tropes of the Christian biblical book called Revelation (or sometimes Apocalypse) took shape in a context of real-world horror and persecution. T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land, composed after the carnage of World War I, and incomprehensibly lyrical in the same way that Revelation often is, could take its place in the Next Testament. But what about the Gospels? My own thoughts initially turn to literature touching on Lincoln and the Civil War, America's central saga of shame and hope. And what of the Epistles of Paul? Should we look to Orwell?

    O bviously, much remains to be done. Creating Next Testament analogues for the "historical" books of the Bible would be tricky; and then there's the whole issue of the Apocrypha?those texts associated with Scripture that have lesser status, such as Tobit, Susanna, and Judith. (There would be plenty to work with here, light and dark: think of stories like O. Henry's "The Gift of the Magi" and Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery.")

    Also remaining to be figured out is what the Ten Commandments should consist of in the Next Testament?not a trivial issue, given that a majority of Americans today would probably align with only about five of the original ones. Fortunately, there's no need to settle everything at once. It took centuries for the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament to congeal into their present form. The proposed Next Testament, unlike Roy's Rock, is not yet carved in stone.

  • Pole
    Pole

    Narkissos,

    You remind me of a number of discussions I used to have with UBS linguists when Nida's "dynamic (or functional) equivalence theory" was THE absolute scientific theory of translation to them -- but the pendulum has dramatically swinged back since.

    The good old Nida ... He was the one to start out with the "formal equivalence" hypothesis. There was an attempt later on to make it a hard "scientific" fact by linking it to Chomsky's Universal Grammar. The pendulum has swung back and forth since then...

    The main problem in the field of Bible translation, I guess, lies in the assumption that each text has only one meaning. Which I would call semantical positivism, or rather reductionism.
    This is especially dubious in the Bible due to the importance of multiple intertextuality. Any Hebrew sentence may have a lot of meanings in view of the contextual scope you take into account. Such as: the sentence itself (which may be originally borrowed from a quite different context); the traditional story or pericope in which it is set, with (or without) its possible developments and additions; the book as a whole; the Hebrew Bible as a whole; the Christian Bible. According to the contextual scope you choose to focus on the meaning (and translation) will differ: for instance, in the same phrase 'èlohim may mean "gods" in the context of the original story but "God" from the standpoint of the whole book.

    This is a problem ecnountered in any literary translation, and most general translations as well (even relatively simple, such as newspaper articles) although to a lesser extent. Think of cases of irony which is typically intentional ambiguity on the part of the author. The one-to-one meaning relationship holds true most of the time in translation of technical texts where all ambiguity is avoided by the authors themselves.

    But you are absolutely right when you mention all the different expectations the translator has to live up to when embarking on the task of translating the conventional collection of texts which so many people consider Holy Scriptures. Plus, the Bible has for centuries been the most heavily referred to single "work of literature" in the Western World. And of course its different books are deeply rooted in their own tradition. Later books contain references to, and even examples of "plagiarism" of some of the earlier books. Take Apocalypse as an example, or some of the interpretations of OT prophecies made by NT writers (stuff like "Jesus did this as it was foretold by Isaiah, the prophet.."). So the Bible has an internal tradition which has to be carefully rendered, or largely disregarded when it comes to translation.

    The so-called "reader-oriented" translations are often "missionary" translations, which tend to produce a "simplified Bible" which suits the sponsors' creed rather than the Bible texts themselves with their overwhelming complexity. Literal renderings (at least when they are not mistranslations) are the common root the reader has to come back to so as to understand, if possible, how and why different meanings depart or derive from one another. That's why the "peritext" (and especially translation footnotes) has an increasing role in any modern translation.

    I guess there will always be enough room for both approaches. "Missionary translations" are just fine for the "lowliest farmer" class, while more literal renderings may satisfy the ambitions of readers of the "scholar class". Which of the two groups better understands "the general message" of the bible? Of course it all depends on what you think the message is and on whether there is any coherent message.

    Also, if you go too far with the text-oriented approach to translation and start adding footnotes everywhere, then the next logical step is interlinear translation, and the next logical step is no translation, just the original texts - if you want to read it, learn the original languages. Then what's the point of translation in the first place? And what about the lowliest farmer class? :)

    It's all about striking what you think is the perfect balance. Translations are products. They are marketed and targeted at specific customers. Each one is based on an agenda which cannot be proven in absolute terms.

    Interesting that you've noted that the problem partly originates from Derrida's différance indeed. As you read this post you only have some idea of my intended meanings. Moreover, it is quite certain that I won't be fully capable of making full sense of this post in a few years time!!!

    So if you were to put it all in French now, you can either do a lot of guesswork and risk imposing your (mis)interpretation, or stick to the ambiguity of literal meanings and risk watering down the most probable interpretation.

    The linguistic dillema in question is like the wave-particle duality problem in physics.

    Thanks for your comments!

    Pole

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit