MOSES AND THE COPPER SERPENT......mysterious!

by Terry 39 Replies latest jw friends

  • Terry
    Terry

    Isn't it odd; even mysterious that Christians think Jesus could be represented by a serpent?

    NUMBERS 21:8 And the LORD said unto MOSES, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

    21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. ****************************************************************************************************************

    IN ancient times and places a serpent wrapped around a pole was a kind of magic fetish, often worshipped. Your own doctor probably has one of those symbols. It is the Caduceus. It is a pole with two serpents wrapped around it and little wings on the top. Ever see one? The snake and the stick pop up in many pagan religions.

    Moses first miracle involved snakes and a staff, remember?

    Go to this Hyper link and look at Thoth:

    http://www.prs.org/gallery-egypt.htm

    Don't you find it weird that Christians see nothing peculiar about believing that Christ is foreshadowed by this incident?

    Often in pagan religions a flying serpent or fire-breathing dragon is represented. The Hebrew word saraph is often translated as a kind of Angel! But, the feathered serpent and the angel are pretty much our contemporary choice alternatives.

    Jesus crucified on that pole and the copper serpent: WHAT DO YOU THINK?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Terry,

    You might be very interested in this thread I wrote that goes into depth on this subject. Unfortunately, not all the image links work anymore which sucks, but hopefully the information will be of use to you in understanding the mythology that underlies the story of Moses and the bronze snake, the Garden of Eden, and the connections between the two. Much of it has to do with worship of the creatress goddess Asherah, who was also known as Eve (cf. Phoenician Chawat), Tannit (which means "serpent" in West Semitic, and whose symbol was the caduceus), and who was represented iconographically as the Tree of Life:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/73244/1.ashx (The Tree of Life, Asherah, and her snakes)

    Read in this light, the Garden of Eden story works on one level as a polemic against Asherah worship, as it describes the expulsion of Eve (i.e. Asherah) from the Temple (cf. 2 Kings 18:4; 21:7; 23:4, 6), as well as the forbidding of the Tree of Life (i.e. Asherah) to humans. Even the nakedness of Eve mocks the idolatrous weaving of clothes for Asherah (cf. 2 Kings 23:7). The fact that the bronze serpent was used to heal victims of snakebite in the story in Numbers comports well with Canaanite snakebite spells that call on Asherah and the serpentine god Horon of the underworld to heal the victims. Curiously, the spells have an "Edenic" character to them, alluding to the "Tree of Death," the Tigris, Asherah breathing the breath of life into the victim, molding the healed person from clay, and likening the act of healing with clothing the victim with clothes. And to this day, the consumption of fruit from sacred trees (likely the modern version of the Asherah tree) is strictly forbidden and has severe penalty.

    As for the connection between the Nehushtan and Jesus, this is partly suggested by the Christian linkage between crucifixion and "healing" from sin (cf. the exegesis of Isaiah 53:5). It is also suggested by gnostic conceptions of Jesus as the Redeemer who draws the spirits of men to the Pleroma via true gnosis, and the belief that the serpent of Eden possessed true gnosis and revealed the way to salvation to Adam and Eve (who passed on the gnosis to their son Seth). In other words, the serpent and Jesus were similar as revealers of the divine Truth in some forms of gnosticism -- especially the Ophites, who were syncretistic to Egyptian Isis mysteries and employed serpents in their religious ceremonies. Although the Ophites arose only in the middle of the second century, it is quite possible that Pseudo-Mark makes reference to their cult (or something like it) a little earlier in Mark 16:18.

  • Sunnygal41
    Sunnygal41

    Neat topic, Terry. One time, when I was in my "extra research" mode, I did research on that very verse, myself, because I DID think it was very odd indeed. Of course, at that point, I was working for a Dr. and the Caduceus made me question it. BTW, Thoth later became the Greek God Hermes, who was the Roman God Mercury.

    Being the herald (messenger of the gods), it was his duty to guide the souls of the dead down to the underworld, which is known as a psychopomp. He was also closely connected with bringing dreams to mortals. Hermes is usually depicted with a broad-brimmed hat or a winged cap, winged sandals and the heralds staff (kerykeion in Greek, or Caduceus in Latin). It was often shown as a shaft with two white ribbons, although later they were represented by serpents intertwined in a figure of eight shape, and the shaft often had wings attached. The clothes he donned were usually that of a traveler, or that of a workman or shepherd. Other symbols of Hermes are the cock, tortoise and purse or pouch.

    Terri

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    The Christian response:

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    LOL @ Elsewhere...

    You rock, buddy!

    SNG

  • Terry
    Terry

    I mentioned the Caduceus and Moses' Copper Serpent to a very intelligent Theology student the other day and I thought he would faint. He apparently has never even thought about it or the implications. I showed him various texts and he was speechless. He vowed to bring it up with his Seminary Professors.

    That should be rich!

    I'm beginning to think nobody actually reads the Bible; they only read books ABOUT the Bible.

    Terry

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Ignore the LDS stuff but I haven't got time to weed it out. Apologies for the layout as well. Shrugs.


    Fiery-Flying Serpents

    He sent fiery-flying serpents among them and after they were bitten, he prepared a way that they might be healed. (1 Ne. 17:41 1 Ne. 17:41 )
    In Num. 21:6 Num. 21:6 , where the incident referred to is related, Moses says the Lord sent "fiery serpents"-not "fiery-flying"-among the people. The same expression occurs in Deut. 8:15 Deut. 8:15 . It is clear, therefore, that Nephi did not copy this from Moses.
    Isaiah (14:29) likens King Hezekiah to (comp. 2 Kgs. 18:8 2 Kgs. 18:8 ) a "fiery-flying serpent," and Nephi was familiar with this portion of the Old Testament. (See 2 Ne. 24:1 2 Ne. 24 ) The inference is that he followed Isaiah, in his version of the occurrence, adopting the term used by the prophet as the one that furnishes the more detailed explanation.
    Moses was commanded to make a "fiery serpent" and so he made a "serpent of brass" and raised it upon a pole. (Num. 21:8 Num. 21:8 , Num. 21:9 9) This brass serpent was preserved for perhaps seven centuries and was finally broken up by King Hezekiah, because the people burnt incense to it. Isaiah had seen that brazen serpent before it was destroyed, and he must have had some reason for using the term "flying" in addition to "fiery" or "brazen," in comparing Hezekiah to it. Is it not probable that it was the image of a serpent with wings, such as the Egyptians made?
    In Egypt, where the Israelites as a nation were cradled and where Moses had received his first education, the sacred serpent was the symbol of divine power and wisdom. When Egyptians would express the conception that Egypt was "God's country" enjoying his special care and protection, they drew a picture of two flying serpents of the uroeus species, one wearing the crown of upper, and the other that of lower Egypt. In this picture divine power, wisdom, and protection were visualized, very much as we symbolize national power and other admirable characteristics, as we perceive them with the eye of patriotism, by an Eagle or a Lion, or a Dragon, etc. What has been called the Egyptian national emblem was the solar disc between two serpents, the latter probably representing the eastern and western horizon of the sky, where the sun apparently rises and sets. Wings are extending on either side.
    The image of the sacred serpent occurs as one of the ornaments of most of the Egyptian divine personages. It is part of the crowns of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. When Moses, therefore, was commanded to make a seraph, he was, in all probability, instructed to make not an imitation of the venomous reptile crawling in the dust, but of the glorious personages serving before the thrones of God-the seraphs which Isaiah and other prophets saw in visions; the same personages which were represented in golden statues upon the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenants, and embroidered upon the curtains in the most holy place, also called cherubim.
    This view is supported by strong considerations.
    Just what kind of reptiles the serpents that the Lord sent among the Israelites were is not known. Moses calls them "seraphim serpents" (hanechashim haseraphim), either because their poison was very deadly, or because they were God's messengers of death. But it is certain that the brazen serpent, which Isaiah seems to have referred to as a "flying" serpent, was a type of our Lord who is the source and giver of life; for so we read in John 3:14 John 3:14-15 , where our Lord Himself says:
    "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
    That was the great lesson of the serpent which Moses lifted up in the wilderness. Made of brass, the image must have appeared as fire in the rays of the desert sun, and suspended from a pole it was properly likened to a flying animal.
    The prophecy in Isa. 14:29 Isa. 14:29 helps us to understand the symbolism of the winged serpent. "Him that, smote, thee" is understood to refer to Uzziah, king of Judah, who "smote" the Philistines. (2 Chr. 26:6 1 Chr. 26:6 , 2 Chr. 26:7 7 7) That "rod" was broken by his death, and during the reign of Ahaz, the Philistines invaded Judah and took possession of some of the southern cities. Isaiah, therefore, tells them that they had better not rejoice, because of this success. It was only temporary, for out of the "broken rod," should come forth a "cockatrice" or "adder," referring to Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz, and great-grandson of Uzziah, a more terrible enemy than Uzziah. (2 Kgs. 18:8 2 Kgs. 18:8 )
    But Dr. Clarke informs us (Com. on Isa. 14:29 Isa. 14:29 ) that the Targum renders the 29th and 30th verses thus: "For, from the sons of Jesse shall come forth the Messiah; and his works among you shall be as the flying serpent. And the poor of the people shall he feed, and the humble shall dwell with famine, and the remnant of thy people shall he slay."
    This may be, as Dr. Clarke remarks, a "singular" interpretation, but it shows that the Hebrew conception of the reign of the Messiah is expressed by the image of a "flying" or "winged" serpent. The word used by Isa. 14:29 Isa. 14:29 is saraph which may be familiar to us in its plural form seraphim which we read "seraphs," and understand to mean a high order of angels attending the Lord. (Isa. 6:2 Isa. 6:2 , Isa. 6:6 6) They are represented as having six wings; such is the swiftness of their service. Winds are angels. (Heb. 1:7 Heb. 1:7 ) They are princes, nobles, in heaven. But, says Gesenius, "If any one chooses to follow the Hebrew usus loquendi, in which seraph is serpent, he may indeed here render it [seraphim] by winged serpents; since the serpent both among the ancient Hebrews and Egyptians was the symbol of wisdom and of the healing art. See Num. 21:8 Num. 21:8 ; 2 Kgs. 18:4 2 Kgs. 18:4 .
    The serpent appears in every conceivable form in ancient Egyptian theology. Sometimes it has a human body. It is a symbol of majesty, and as such has wings and a crown. Winged serpents represented the divine protectors of upper and lower Egypt. (Light on the Land of the Sphinx, Chapt. 9, by H. Forbes Witherby, London, 1896)
    Now, the strange fact is that the winged serpent, or the feathered serpent, plays a prominent part also in the religious concepts of the American Indians, and in their traditions. Among the ancient Mexicans, one of the divinities was known as "the feathered" or "plumed serpent," Quetzalcoatl, which name corresponds to the "flying serpent" of the Hebrews. Quetzalcoatl among the Mexicans was what the brazen serpent was to the Hebrews-the representative of the healing, life-giving power, as Esculapius was among the Phoenicians.
    Among the Nahuas Quetzalcoatl was revered as a God. At Cholula he was considered the chief God, somewhat like Jehovah among the Hebrews. He was regarded as the son of Camaxtli, the protector of hunters and fishers, but probably the same as the Pachacamac, the Creator, of the Peruvians.
    But Quetzalcoatl also became a man. As such he was born of Chimalma, the wife of Camaxtli, who conceived him miraculously. He taught men the arts of civilization, and preached morality, penitence, and peace.
    As a man he visited Cholula, remaining there for twenty years. He taught the people to work in silver, prohibited blood sacrifices, and showed them the way to happiness through virtue and peace. After his mission was finished, he left for the sea shore, where he bid his companions farewell and promised that, some time, in the future he would return.
    One of the opponents of Quetzalcoatl was Tezcatlipoca, a personage of divine origin and great power, but evil, bent upon bringing calamities and misfortunes upon the people.
    The ecclesiastical officer next in rank to the pontiff, or high priest, was called Quetzalcoatl, in honor of the great national hero, and there were, therefore, a great many quetzalcoatls, and the probability is that the traditions relating to the divine reformer and his successors have been so mixed as to preclude the possibility of a clear and perfect understanding of what the ancient Mexicans really did believe, but what is here stated seems to be the essence of it.
    The Mexicans kept a sacred fire burning perpetually, as did the Hebrews, and by that fire they waited patiently for the return of Quetzalcoatl. It is claimed that the Pueblo Indians had a similar custom in their kivas, for a similar reason.
    "Amongst the semi-civilized nations of America, from Mexico southward, as also amongst many nations of the Old World, the serpent was a prominent religions symbol, beneath which was concealed the profoundest significance. Under many of its aspects it coincided with the sun, or was the symbol of the Supreme Divinity of the heathens, of which the sun was one of the most obvious emblems. In the instance before us, the plumed, sacred serpent of the aborigines was artfully depicted so as to combine both symbols in one." (E.G. Squire, Nicaragua, Vol. 1, p. 406.)

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Terry - ever read the Narnia books - particular the bit about the stone table and the deeper magic? Same concept happening here maybe..if you go further back you see more of the story unfold.

    Have the aethiests ever wondered how many parts of the Israelite religion are found in a mashed up form in other cultures just as one would expect from the story of Genesis and the Tower of Babel. Assuming Adam was taught the gospel in whatever form it was back then we see the broken remnants of it in all early cultures.

    1/ Concept of a Heavenly Family (much of modern day Christianity just loves to ignore that concept)
    2/ Interaction between the gods and the people to start off civilisation and religion.
    3/ Garden of Eden.
    4/ Flood legends.
    5/ Joint symbolism.
    6/ Requirement of a Saviour figure.
    7/ A rebellion in heaven and a resulting conflict.

    I spent a while looking at the Egyptian love affair with eternal life and the Priesthood. Considering that the Jewish Flood legend suggests that the Egyptian peoples where cursed never to have the true priesthood it makes sense that they copied what they could and made up the rest.

  • Terry
    Terry

    BELOW is a summation of the above:

    The Tree of Life

    KERYKEION (greek) HERMES
    Was Hermes the forerunner of the trickster Satan in Eden?
    What was the Copper Serpent used by Moses to "cure" poisonous serpent bites in the wilderness?
    Is the image of the tree of life from eden and the cunning serpent connected to any of the above?
    __________________________________________________________________________________________

    Who was Hermes?

    Hermes was a son of Zeus.

    He was quick and cunning, and moved freely between the worlds of the mortal and divine, as emissary and messenger of the gods,

    In some myths he is a trickster, and outwits other gods for his own satisfaction.

    Hermes is the Greek version. The Romans had their own version: Mercury.

    The Romans inherited Mercury from the previous Etruscans.

    Hermes was so gifted in the use of words and subtle meanings we get the theological word: hermenuetics from him!

    Hermes could interpret for others what something really meant. (Like the serpent in Eden did for Adam and Eve:)

    In Homer's Odyssey, Hermes is skilled at deceptive acts. (Homer was writing about 800 b.c.)

    In Aesop's fables, Hermes was the one who granted intelligence or knowledge to each human being.

    Interestingly, prior to being the Greek version of Hermes, he was depicted as a SNAKE GOD.

    Hermes is the teacher of all secret wisdoms available to knowing by the experience of religious ecstasy.

    For Carl Jung, Hermes as the trickster is the guide in total for the psychotherapeutic process.

    The image of the sacred serpent occurs as one of the ornaments of most of the Egyptian divine personages. It is part of the crowns of Osiris, Isis, and Horus.

    In the Hebrew bible, the caduceus was a sacred object in the form of a snake (made of brass) upon a pole. If an Israelite were bitten by a serpent the wound would burn like fire, hence, "fiery sperpent." (NOTE: The idea of fire-breathing dragons may stem from misunderstanding of: fiery serpent.)

    Today, the medical profession adopt the caduceus as the symbol for the healing arts!

    Among the ancient Mexicans, one of the divinities was known as "the feathered" or "plumed serpent," Quetzalcoatl, which name corresponds to the "flying serpent" of the Hebrews. Quetzalcoatl among the Mexicans was what the brazen serpent was to the Hebrews-the representative of the healing, life-giving power, as Esculapius was among the Phoenicians.

    Moses was commanded to make a "fiery serpent" and so he made a "serpent of brass" and raised it upon a pole. (Num. 21:8 Num. 21:8 , Num. 21:9 9) This brass serpent was preserved for perhaps seven centuries and was finally broken up by King Hezekiah, because the people burnt incense to it. Isaiah had seen that brazen serpent before it was destroyed, and he must have had some reason for using the term "flying" in addition to "fiery" or "brazen," in comparing Hezekiah to it.

    It may be probable that it was the image of a serpent with wings, such as the Egyptians made.

    There is a connection to worship of the creator goddess Asherah, also known as EVE

    (cf. Phoenician Chawat ), Tannit (which means "serpent" in West Semitic, and whose symbol was the caduceus), and who was represented iconographically as the Tree of Life.

    (The Tree of Life, Asherah, and her snakes)

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/73244/1/

    So many stories of ancient times influenced other myths and folklore from other civilizations

    it is difficult to untangle the knots. Once the loose ends are traced back on a timeline a better

    overview is possible. The ingredients of our bible stories are much richer in allegory than the literal view of real persons, places and actual events.

  • fakesmile

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