MOSES AND THE COPPER SERPENT......mysterious!

by Terry 39 Replies latest jw friends

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I disagree with you. The Jewish religion existed long before Jesus of Nazareth and Paul. Stephen's stoning in the Temple gives a clue as to how Jewish people felt about Greek Christians using prophecy improperly. For example, somehow I came upon a Jewish explanation of the 2k3rd Psalm. It is about temple worship, not Jesus. Christians need to be aware that we filter history through Christian tinted glasses. Western culture is heavily identified with Christian thought so anyone raised in Western culture has a hard time encountering the truth.

    The reference is obscure. Would Christ use such an example to teach or a more basic teaching? It is not fulfillment of prophecy. This is so clear. Ask any Hindy or Buddhist if they see fulfilled prophecy. If the Logos identification was complete, the Christology debates and wars that killed many thousands would not occur. If one starts from a neutral source, Jesus' deity is not in the NT. There are intriguing hints but the academic verdit has long been available.

    It reminds me of the Paul is Dead mania. I knew he was not. He was so identifiable and the news so hot that morgue shots would appear in the New York Post as the paper put Elvis and Lennon morgue shots on the front page and triggered more suicides. Yet we had fun with emergency meetings, pulling out albums and finding the clues that others referenced for ourselves. It was big news for about two weeks. Finally, Paul had to come out of seclusion at his farm. Life magazine put the photo on its cover. The back of the page contaiined a full page color photograph of a car. Paul supposedly died in a bad car crash. Anyway, people were glad that Paul was alive. A few people always believe that he died and the Beatles substituted a look-alike. Would George and a fake Paul have fought and reconciled so much?

    When I read the serpent story with Moses, I see a fragment of earlier Jewish belief. It smacks clearly of idolatry. This view might make sense b/c there are many household idols of Jehovah and his wife throughout Israel. They date before monotheism was believed. Yes, perhaps jewish people understood the reference. Jesus preached to Jews, however. Paul brought the faith to Gentile God-fearers.

    As an informed Christian, I would love to see propehcy fulfilled. It just does not happen. I believe Bart Ehrman explained that Roman pax culture was open to powerful, foreign gods. The Ceasar's arranged for Temple sacirfices to the Jewish God. The most prestigious religions in the area had long histories. Judaism was one of the oldest. The concpetion of the gospels and Pauls letters are markedly different from the Old Testament conceptions. As Christianities became more and more popular within Roman culture, identification with Judaism established credentials of legitimacy for an upstart new religion with little status.

    It was long ago but I studied every slight reference that believers link Jesus with God. I am a lawyer by training so I paid strict attention to the text. My conclusion was that academics are correct. The record concerning the Trinity or even Jesus' acknowledgement of messianic stature is not present. Christians are programmed to find these links, whether they exist or not.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Band on The Run , thank you for a reasoned and polite reply . I do still think however that the issue is not so clear cut .

    Doesn't the Bible say that God's redemption was supposed to be for the whole world , but because the Jews were rebellious and stubborn they were not drawing people to God as they should ? I know that this is a simplistic way of putting it but I hope that you understand my meaning . If this is the case and God always meant for the whole world to come to aknowledgment of Him , then it logically follows that Paul and others would preach to Gentiles and Pagans . God wants everyone to be saved .

    What prophecy would you like to see fulfilled ?

    you mention wars , again I will say that religion does not cause war , human nature does , anyone actually following any main religion , including Christianity knows that no religion actually advocates killing . You know that Jesus said do good to them that hate you and treat your fellow man as you would want to be treated . Whatever you believe doctrinally about Jesus No true follower would go to war in His name , as a means of converting someone .

    All of the Disciples were willing to die or face imprisonment , flogging etc rather than stop preaching the message of Jesus which included His divinity , they must have been pretty sure of what they were saying .

    I know that Muslims are willing to die for their faith , suicide bombers etc , but they are suffering for someone elses lie , the promise of virgins etc . The disciples were willing to die for what they said they knew first hand . That surely carries some weight .

  • jhine
    jhine

    p.s. Band On The Run what is your religion as you do not seem to believe in the divinity if Christ ?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Well, I don't know if you are truly interested in my religion or whether you think you can define Christ for me within your narrow constraints. I am a practicing Episcopalian. Not only do I worship but I log volunteer hours in minisries, attend seminary courses, and study the Bible in a consistent manner. One can be educated and informed and still be Christian.

    I will gladly compete with you on any Bible debate. Your statements do not reveal a sophsticated knowledge of the Bible or theology. Christ stretched out his arms on the hard wood of the cross to reach everyone within his saving embrace. He was not a sacrifice for only people who believe what you do. The Bible is not inerrant.

    It would take me countless days to state all my views. If you search my posts, you will find ample discussions of what I believe. I personally feel it is insulting to Christ to take the Bible as inerrant truth and to diss Judaism. The Bible was not written by God but by humans. A group of men met to canonize the Bible. Jesus only had a few Jewish scriptures available to him compared to what we now refer to as the Old Testament.

    I honestly believe I accept an Incarnation view of Christ more than you do. Reading the Bible text repeatedly liberated me. I studied scholarly NT work in college, While I know nothing compared to a true scholar in the field, I know more than most people. It sometimes feels as though I am addicted. The Witnesses messed with my mind.

    We project onto Christ our issues. The historical Jesus in the Bible is complex. Christianity ruined him in many ways. Skepticism and faith are possible.

    The prophecy fulfillment drives me nuts. It is so not historical. Jews and Christians have a long history of tension and warfare. They are not the same religion. It is highly insulting to an entire religion to state that it was fulfilled by anothe religion. Jews exist today. They do not need yor permission. Their theology is not deficient.

    I grew up in an area with many religions.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Never meant to diss the Jews , they are still God's chosen people and I believe will play the vital role in the end times . Where did I say that they needed my permission to exist ? Do not wish to debate with you and have no wish to try to change you , just thought that we were having a civilised discussion .

    Your point about being educated , informed and a Christian confuses me . I believe that being a Christian and being educated are most certainly not mutually exclusive .

    You said that as an informed Christian you would love to see prophecy fulfilled . Then you say that is not historical , well which ? and what prophecy ?

    Because I asked you about your religion you seemed to go on the offensive , is that the JW mind messed up bit ?

    How is my veiw of Christ narrow ? I genuinely would like to know your reasons for saying that , I am open to learn from anyone and will consider any veiws , I do not promise to agree with everyone but I hope never to have a closed mind and realise that I have much to learn still .

    You say that my statements do not reveal a sophisticated knowledge of the Bible or theology , must one have a sophisticated knowledge to be saved ?

    Is book learning better than wisdom from God , Jesus said that He was glad that the Father had revealed Himself to the simple people .

    You seem very wary , if not suspicious of peoples motives , I am what you see on the tin , no more , no less .

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    No, my religion is not relevant to this discussion. You clearly think you are superior with your take b/c you are a Christian. Well, many, many Christians do not agree with you. Prophecy fulfillment is in the eye of the beholder. I don't believe events can be foretold. The stars don't tell future events. Neither does the I Ching or the Bible.

    People writing at a later day want to legitmize their times as the most important in human history. So the present or near future is always the fulfillment of some vague scripture. If we could foretell the future, life would not be so pleasant as we think.

    We live in a global community. The earth is one planet among billions. Get some perspective.

    I don't live in the first century. Soothsayers are not so possible. People tell me that long range weather forecasting is possible.

    Worship your Christ and I will worship mine.

    What does it matter to you? Ok, you are some crazy Christian and I am not. Congratulations. Most people I know find this prophecy fulfillment utter nonsense.

  • jhine
    jhine

    can't be doin ' with this when did I ever say I was superior?

    Also my understanding of Episcopalians are that they believe much the same as Anglicans ?

    Do not get your attitude , you clearly have a huge chip on your shoulder .

  • Terry
    Terry

    If only there weren't details of history bolloxing up religious claims!

    We'd all get along so well.

    As an old friend of mine would say, "Why cloud the issue with...um...facts!?"

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    What does my religion have to do with objective facts, acknowledged by tons of academic literature. Episcopalians are Anglicans. The main starting body is the Church of England. Every British colony or former colony had its own version. The churches join together in an Anglican Communion. The archbishop of Canterbury is the acknowledged leader. He leads more by moral authority. The Pope is very different. Each individual church defines its beliefs. No one wants to stray too far from the rest of the Anglican Communion.

    People assume that the Church of England has the power. I used to think so. The fact is that the C of E is losing congregants in England. The vast majority of Anglicans are conservative Africans. Americans forged ahead with gay bishops and female bishops. The top bishop in the states is the Presiding Bishop, a post filled by a woman oceanographer. There are talks of the Communion falling apart.

    England is proposing women bishops in a few years. Women priests are allowed. The Africans find all this progressive equalty too much. They have the votes. Americans have the money, though, that flows to Africa. If there is a showdown about women or gays, the Africans can win with votes. We will retaliate by cutting off all income flow.

    I don't envy the present Archbishop of Canterbury. My question is why is Africa so conservative concerning women and gays. They can see the experience in America and England.

    I don't mean to be so argumentative. People here come from a wide background. I am passionate with friends. They are equally passionate about their views. It is easy to forget that someone else is reading this forum. Softer would be better.

  • jhine
    jhine

    thank you ,for that reply . I am Anglican , so that is what confused me , surely we should be agreeing on more stuff than we disagree on . I believe the same basic theology as you . I really do not want to diss you at all we are on the same side .

    Certainly my Cof E church is not full on Sundays and to be honest we are not too hot on evangelising , we are a typical country church that holds fetes,and runs a group for moms and under fives . We have however just started an initiative of going door to door ( can't wait to see the reaction of the local JW s ) just telling people about the church and giving a small leaflet out with information about the food bank and help for homeless people and addicts etc , which are projects run by the big sister church in the nearby town , so we are making a start toward coming into the 20th century at least with regards to outreach !

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