Graven Images

ruffian

Maybe some of you are familiar with the study guid that the J.W's brought to me. Its called "What does God Really Require Of Us?" In chaper 2 they mention graven images. I tried to explain the topic better to them but they werent getting it. I tried to show them how God instructed and gave details on how to make the angels on the Ark. They said "Yes but they werent worshiped." I asid "Neither are my statues of Jesus, I do not worship them, and the pictures I have of saints are there to remind me of my Holy forefathers and its no different than having photos of my deceased relatives on my walls. they are there because I loved them and want to be reminded of them.But I NOT worship them. Graven images as God described them were images of false Gods that the pagans worshiped and adored and gave gifts to." Did I handle this OK? They just seemed to look at me as if it went right over their heads. Is there a better way to explain this to them?

GodBless
SusanH

larc

Susan,

I think that was a very good explaination. The reason it looked like it went right over their heads is because it did. You see, they are programmed to answer dozens of standard questions, and this ability gives others the impresseion that they are very knowledgeable. However, this is rote learning, and when someone gives them a question or an answer they have never heard before their programming shuts down. Most of them can not think for themselves very well.

mustang

Susan/Ruffian,

I agree w/ Larc, that you handled it well. Quite well, indeed. Larc's synopsis of the situation is also quite correct and is very succinct. They are Bible-thumping robots.

You are safe to keep seeing them, at that rate, if you so choose. Many don't have such debate/argument skills or the proper arguments available. They get sucked in to the traps of Dub-dom. Others, such as myself, were 'born into' the mess and over-exposed.

If you ever find yourself being the 'moth drawn too close to the flame', pull this discussion out and repeat it!!!

BTW, welcome to the board. Your clear thinking under fire is refreshing.

Mustang

mustang

Susan,

As Larc said, they are rote-instructed, BIGTIME. Each congreagation has a TMS (Theocratic Ministry School) and Service Meeting. Both teach door-door warfare techniques and practice sermons of the sort you encountered. Indeed, they are formidable until they meet a new twist on some subject. Somebody said there were 100,000+ congreagations; I'm not sure. The WTS once stated that they had the largest school on earth. That might indeed be the case, in a certain view of things, considering the number of congreagations.

Mustang

Jimmer

You handled it quite well. Your explaination was the best I've heard in a long time. If they didn't get it--that's their problem. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

You Know

Apparently the message of the Bible has "gone over your head." Either you don't know your religion very well, or you are not being honest. The truth is, that many Catholics DO worship the saints! For example, it is quite common for Catholics to attribute special powers to certain saints and their images. St. Christopher supposedly protects travelers from harm, and so his idol or image is worn for that purpose, is that not so? Some might put an idol of St Christopher on the dashboard of their car in the superstitious believe that the little figurine will protect the driver against having an auto accident. You won't put a picture of a deceased relative on the dashboard, would you? Not unless you thought they could do something for the living. At times when disasters strike Catholics have been known to pray to certain saints for protection or to kiss or clutch a cross in hopes of evoking some magical blessing from above. Perhaps you don't view your images of the saints that way, but it is obvious that many Catholics do venerate those types of images.

By the way, the Catholic translation, called The New Jerusalem Bible, uses the divine name thousands of times. It uses the inferior translation of Yahweh, but it indicates that they at least recognize that God has a distinctive name, and that the YHWH should not be rendered as God or LORD. The New World Translation is not so "crasy" as you imagine, but is in fact more faithful to the Scriptures than most other Bible translations. / You Know

terraly

Right You Know, and Witnesses don't call out the name of Jehovah to scare away the demons they think are haunting them? Like somehow that word has special magical powers? Heck, my girlfriend even says she knows of Witnesses who carried around WT publications after hearing some experience about a Witness who was about to be mugged, but wasn't after the would-be-attacker saw some piece of literature she was carrying.

The point is not that certain people behave superstitiously about all sorts of things. People do. This does not mean that that is how all Catholics behave around pieces of artwork and reminders of Jesus' death- or that such symbols necessarily breed this very human inclination to attribute superstitions powers to all sorts of random objects.

Also, why exactly is Jehovah, a word essentially invented by some monk, the "superior" form? What makes it so? The FDS slave's acceptance thereof? Or do you have any other rational for believing Yahweh is inferior?

You Know

Right You Know, and Witnesses don't call out the name of Jehovah to scare away the demons they think are haunting them?

You seem to be a little confused here. Jehovah is God. He invites us to call upon his name. There is no provision in Scripture to invoke the names of saints for salvation. Once when a crowd of idolaters tried to pay homage to Paul and Barnabas, they were horrified at that prospect, and assured the Athenians that they were not gods but mere ordinary men. / You Know

ruffian

Actually you seem to be the one a bit confused. Maybe you need to brush up on your scriptures a bit more before you assume there is no biblical support for what Catholics believe. I didnt join this board for yet another chance to debate someone that hasnt bothered to really learn about the faith [8>] so Im not going to get into this excpt to give you some scriputural referances. For images please see- Exodus 25. 18/ Numb. 21.8,9/ Exodus 37.7/ 2 Paralipomenon 3. 10,11/ 3 Kings 6. 23, 32, 35/ 1 Paralipomenon 28. 18, 19/ Hebrews 11. 21/ Psalm 98. 5.
See also saints- Luke 16.9/ 1 Corin. 12. 8/ Apoc 5.8/ Hebrews 12. 22,23/ Apoc 2. 26,27 and ch 5.10/ Luke 15. 10/ 1Corin. 13. 12 ! John 3. 2/ Exodus 32. 11, 14/ 1Kings 7. 8-10/ Romans 15. 30

I hope this helps a bit and please in the future try to refrain from accusing me of not knowing my faith- have a nice night.

willy_think

you know,

the frist thing you need to know is the saints or as you might call them the "annointed" are ALIVE in heven.not like a dead anything. you say thay are worshiped then you give no evidence of worship only the asking of favors. i ask my live relatives to help me why can't i ask my live sants too?

but it is obvious that many Catholics do venerate those types of images.

wrong maby you need to read the catechism. venerate or worship?

At times when disasters strike Catholics have been known to pray to certain saints for protection or to kiss or clutch a cross in hopes of evoking some magical blessing from above.

lol like i said asking is not worshiping.

"blessing from above" only you could make those 3 words sound like a negative. maby you never recieved a blessing from above

Graven Images

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