Understanding why Evil Happens....Same or Different?

by jgnat 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

jgnat

This last Sunday's public talk was titled, "Why Take Refuge in Jehovah?" The speaker had studied his Watchtowers well, and provided an unattributed quote (possibly from October 1, 2002 WT) as proof that Christendom's churches don't have the answer:
I have been asked hundreds of times in my life why God allows tragedy and suffering. I have to confess that I really do not know the answer totally, even to my own satisfaction.
I did a bit of digging, and discovered this quote is extracted from Billy Graham's sermon on September 14, 2004 at the National Cathedral. More fully, he said,
We've seen so much on our television, heard on our radio, stories that bring tears to our eyes and make us all feel a sense of anger. But God can be trusted, even when life seems at its darkest. But what are some of the lessons we can learn? First, we are reminded of the mystery and reality of evil. I have been asked hundreds of times in my life why God allows tragedy and suffering. I have to confess that I really do not know the answer totally, even to my own satisfaction. I have to accept, by faith, that God is sovereign, and He?s a God of love and mercy and compassion in the midst of suffering. The Bible says that God is not the author of evil. It speaks of evil as a "mystery." In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 it talks about the mystery of iniquity. The Old Testament prophet Jeremiah said, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" He asked that question, "Who can understand it?" And that?s one reason we each need God in our lives. The lesson of this event is not only about the mystery of iniquity and evil, but secondly, it?s a lesson about our need for each other.
The Watchtower society is proud of their record of having an answer to every question. But is their answer to evil satisfying? From Draw Close to Jehovah, pages 126-127 this week's study:
The Bible does not address every question regarding Jehovah's actions in the past; nor does it provide every detail about how Jehovah will render judgement concerning individuals and groups in the future. When we are puzzled by accounts or prophecies in the Bible where such detail is lacking, we can display the same loyalty as did the prophet Micah, who wrote: "I will show a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation." - Micah 7:7....If we remain loyal to Jehovah and his soverignty, he will give us the strength to endure until the appointed time when he will correct all injustices under his Kingdom rule.
So Doctor Graham's sermon urged the nation to turn their grief and anger towards constructive action. The Jehovah's Witness solution is to display unwavering loyalty and wait for the ultimate solution. Is the Jehovah's Witness answer truly more satisfying?
wednesday

The only thing i can see positive from enduring evil is u are then able to help someone else in a similar situation. JWS say we can't blame evil on God. It is man himself that is evil. Obiviously God could stop evil if He chose to, so for whatever reason, He is allowing it. It is that reason that makes no sense to me.
jgnat

...and that is the same puzzle that I still struggle with, Wednesday. If God is so all-powerful, why doesn't He just stop it? If there is a Higher Reason he cannot, then we are not as important in his agenda as we have been led to believe, or else He is not as powerful (self-restricted) as we have been led to believe.
Perhaps He has made a vow not to interfere with the affairs of men.
In my grief, I chose not to reject God, but to live with my not knowing the answer. I plan on having a long discussion with Him about it after this life is over.
wednesday

i agree jgnat, i still chose to believe God has some reasn for this, and will be telling us all.
Terry

When you begin to "define" who and what God is it becomes necessary to state precisely in actual terms the nature of this person.
But, if the actions, activities, history of behavior (as recorded in a book attributed to him) contradicts those definitions what happens?
Nullifying proof has a "falsifying" effect.
God either IS or He ISN'T:
1.All-knowing
2.All-powerful
3.Eternal
4.Loving
5.Just
6.Wise
7.Purposeful
I would submit that the existence of destructive forces at work contrary to the stated purposes of such a personality as above described are prima facie evidence of "permission" .
To say that god desires that everyone should be saved and yet, to predict that only a relative few will be saved is to call into question His power to achieve His purpose.
For god to be unfailing in achievement is to make the end result perfectly correspond to His intentions. It cannot be otherwise.
If I want my little girl to cross the street without being hit by a car and yet I stand and watch it happen without exerting EVERY MEANS at my disposal to prevent her destruction, I am culpable.
God can be described as "calling out" for us to stop destructive behavior. But, if we don't heed his call or don't hear it or fail to understand the importance--should we be allowed our self-destruction? That is the way the Church frames the issue.
I repeat my above example. If my child defies my counsel and heads for the road--why wouldn't I let her go ahead and get hit by the car? Even if I could BRING HER BACK TO LIFE, would I, as a parent, ever in a million years consider it a good lesson to allow such an act to occur?
Then, how can I be kinder and a better parent than God?
No matter which way you turn the problem; God can only be considered in one of three modes toward humans:
1.Indifferent to suffering
2.Concerned and sympathetic but helpless
3.Concerned and sympathetic but unwilling to intervene
(I left out the option :
no God)
The idea that God needs to "prove" something to Satan or to weak and imperfect humans is laughable. Such an insecure God isn't much of a god at all.
If God isn't IN CHARGE of his creation, such a position in no way differs from being unable, unwilling or non-existent.
Freedom of choice is a ludicrous policy.
Why?
Let us take an example.
Hold a loaded gun to your head and put your finger on the trigger. What are the good choices vs the bad choices? (A wise choice would be to NEVER put the gun up to your head.)
1.Pull the trigger and die
2.Don't pull the trigger and live
Technically, mathematically there are 2 choices. But, survival-wise there aren't ANY choices. There can be NO consideration of the possibility of an action that causes the trigger to be pulled. Never!
So, what does that purport to prove?
The illusion of choice is a subterfuge, a non-issue.
By God giving mankind the built-in instinct to make right choices AUTOMATICALLY, God would have in no way limited humans in any way. By introducing "free will" into the equation what happens? The only possible "choice" is destructive. Mankind can NEVER BENEFIT from a "free choice" vs instinctual and automatic wise choice.
God cooked the books! He stacked the deck! He cheated the outcome!
There is only one conclusion we can arrive at in each of three considerations.
1.The state of the universe and particularly the condition of man and nature demonstrate no God is actively involved.
2.The way things are demonstrate that God is actively involved and he wants things TO BE EXACTLY the way they are.
3.God is unable, unwilling or unconcerned. We are God's video game; his reality TV; his amusement.
Take your pick!
jgnat

You lay out the problem neatly, Terry. I am leaning mostly towards:
3.Concerned and sympathetic but unwilling to intervene
Though I have no answer to why there is evil, I also am not at liberty to dismiss the existence of God, since I attribute my survival thus far to His intervention. Why He does not intervene all the time, however, remains a mystery.
I also appreciate your dismissal of the Jehovah's Witness explanation. Why would God have the need to justify His sovereignty to His own creation? As a parent, I never left it to question whether I was the one in charge. It was assumed. The JW God is insecure indeed. Perhaps a reflection of the men who created Him?
Nosferatu

Why are some animals evil? If Lions were perfect in the Garden of Eden, why were they taken down with Adam & Eve? They didn't eat from the stupid tree. Why is my cat imperfect? Why does he sometimes miss and poop outside the litter box? Cats don't eat fruit.
jgnat

I don't see hunters as evil, but that's just me. I step on ants with impunity. I have stared in to the eyes of evil, and I happen to think that mankind specializes in it.
JT

The idea that God needs to "prove" something to Satan or to weak and imperfect humans is laughable. Such an insecure God isn't much of a god at all.
####
Even as jw i found it hard to reconcile that god had to prove something,- recall the illustration we used, suppose the man across the street dogged a man to his family - then he would have to prove to his kids that he was good to them
i thinking-- most folks would be like --Leroy across the street ain't paying no bills over here,
if he wants to talk let him pick up the mortage this month- smile
To teach that satan challenged god in front of other angels and god had to show over time that the charge was false is a joke
let's be real, i am thinking like a person with the "Black Exp" of parents-
in some cultures they have this thing called "Little Johnny TIME OUT"
not in the black families i know, more like KNOCK YOUR %$& OUT!!!-- SMILE
if you were being raised by Willy and Bertha you got an A$$ beating for embarassing them in front of others folks
You know how some kids in the store fall on the floor and cry till they get the candy, try that will black parents out of the 60's, (yes today we call that child abuse-Smile)
to challenge your mom or dad i front of your siblings meant DEATH BY BEATING in the black homes i knew growing up in the sticks of NC
so here we have god and some billions and bilions of kids called angel, and this one little smart mouth called satan back talks daddy god and his response is
Well i need for you to go down to the earth and treat my kids on earth likea DIRT and then everyone will see that i am a good daddy
when you take a step back and look at how foolish that line of reasoning is it is a joke
when we were kids and we saw what happened to one of the other kids for being disobedient, we didn't need 1000yrs to figure out DADDY DON'T PLAY
so instead of snuffing this bad seed out,
he forsaw that billions of humans would have to suffer rape, torture , war pain, suffering diease , physically deformiaties, etc for 1000's of years just to prove that ONE DUDE was wrong
is it not amazing how we as former jw actually believed that and sold it to millions of others each week
how sad
FlyingHighNow

To say that god desires that everyone should be saved and yet, to predict that only a relative few will be saved is to call into question His power to achieve His purpose.

Terry, I used to correspond with a former elder when I first started doing WT research on the net. I asked him if he believed all those who died in the flood would not get a ressurection and if he thought billions would really die at Armegeddon. I had been very troubled by the thought for a long time. I thought it such a waste of good people and senseless.
His answer: If Jesus died to save us from death, then if all those people died forever, Jesus' sacrifice would be worth much less. But if all those people were saved by his ransom then it would make Jesus' blood worth far more and much more precious.
I thought that a very profound thought that somehow escaped the governing body. They are making their Jesus' sacrifce pretty worthless when you think about. I always enjoy your posts immensely, Terry.
Then there is JT:
If I want my little girl to cross the street without being hit by a car and yet I stand and watch it happen without exerting EVERY MEANS at my disposal to prevent her destruction, I am culpable.
This same thought has run through my mind many times lately. I cried a lot yesterday over the tragic effect the JW religion has had on my children. God wanted this? *Shaking my head in disbelief* This is a helpful illustration. Thank you.
1.Indifferent to suffering2.Concerned and sympathetic but helpless3.Concerned and sympathetic but unwilling to intervene(I left out the option :no God)
I hope somehow there are other options we don't even dream about. I know one thing, there are many times I have desperately needed him or my kids have and he DID NOT INTERVENE.
JT, I thoroughly enjoyed your entire post here. So much so that I had to stop and read your very fascinating profile.
if you were being raised by Willy and Bertha you got an A$$ beating for embarassing them in front of others folks
You know, my mother wasn't black, but she raised us the exact same way. My mom had six kids and society expected children to behave. I guess the only way she felt she could keep us in line was to beat us into line. I can imagine that pressure on black parents would have a hundred times worse than for my mother.
Well i need for you to go down to the earth and treat my kids on earth likea DIRT and then everyone will see that i am a good daddy
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. NOT.
when we were kids and we saw what happened to one of the other kids for being disobedient, we didn't need 1000yrs to figure out DADDY DON'T PLAY
For real.
so instead of snuffing this bad seed out, he forsaw that billions of humans would have to suffer rape, torture , war pain, suffering diease , physically deformiaties, etc for 1000's of years just to prove that ONE DUDE was wrong
I say that if God doesn't see this and realize that we all were born with crappy genes and extenutating circumstances, and choose to have great mercy on us then he is as evil as the Bible Satan.
Thank you all for your insights on this thread here.
Flyin'

Understanding why Evil Happens....Same or Different?

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