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Understanding why Evil Happens....Same or Different?
by jgnat 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Big Tex
So Doctor Graham's sermon urged the nation to turn their grief and anger towards constructive action. The Jehovah's Witness solution is to display unwavering loyalty and wait for the ultimate solution. Is the Jehovah's Witness answer truly more satisfying?
I don't know. I'm coming around to believing that God gave us a world, and everything in it, and the rest is up to us.
Why does God allow evil? Maybe we should look in the mirror first. Why do we allow evil? I'm coming to think it is necessary to reject the passive idea of sitting and waiting for God to magically fix everything. This is our world, it is our responsibility to take care of each other; to care instead of kill. Maybe our world is as good, or as evil, as we all want it to be.
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FlyingHighNow
Tex, don't you think the majority of humankind want the world to be a good place? Yet look at just the increasing violence due to illegal drug use and commerce in this country alone. Probably a majority of us would like this not to be true, but thanks to the drug culture it is true. We are wondering why God ever allowed things to get this bad in the first place and create the need to fix anything.
Flyin'
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Big Tex
Forgive me if this sounds naive, and I don't mean it in a trite way, but I believe that if we want to solve it, we could. But it doesn't happen because of something said in All the President's Men: "Follow the money." Money makes the world go around, there are those that care more for money than for the evil drugs do to society.
I think we can make a difference in little ways. But I believe real change won't come until the majority of humanity wants it and then does it.
But as for God, if he were to step in and solve one problem, say drugs, then I for one would want to know why he doesn't solve child abuse, or world hunger, or war and so on. Where does he stop? And at some point then, with him calling the shots on how to live, what to eat, how to think, wouldn't our own independent thought and free will cease? Wouldn't we be nothing more than marionettes with God pulling the strings?
There is a great deal of anger in the world, and in particular amongst exJWs. I'm not eager to engage that, but I will say one belief (and that's all it is) of mine: I'm coming to believe that God does not intervene on a global level out of respect for us. I'm starting to believe that we have the answers and the power to make it happen without the magical help of a higher being. Having said that, I also believe that God does intervene but he does so in little ways, and where he chooses.
One of my therapists told me a story of when she worked for social services and did some work with foster children. There came one rainy, cold winter day when she had to make a visit on an older foster couple who lived out in the boonies. She grumbled to herself but made the journey. She had to stop and get gas at some Quickie Mart type store and when she went inside to pay she saw a tub of stuffed animals. She thought it might make a nice present but gagged when she saw the price. However, when she got back in the car to go, she stopped, sighed heavily and went back in and in her words "bought the rip off teddy bear."
When she got to the house, it was clean but old and kind of beaten down. The couple met her and they chatted for a minute and when the foster child shyly came out she showed him the teddy bear. She said his eyes bugged out, and his mouth dropped. Big tears formed and he turned and ran back into the house. She said she was baffled and looked to the foster couple for an explanation. Before they could explain, the child came back and handed her a tattered old photo of the exact teddy bear she had shown him.
The foster couple explained to her that he had brought the picture with him and every night he prayed to his God asking for it. Then she said something I'll never forget: "He had come from an extremely abusive home, and you know, the odds aren't good for him. But for one brief moment, God came alive to him, reached out, touched him and in that moment he found grace."
Maybe God is no different than we are. Maybe he does the best he can, when he can.
But what do I know? I'm just a little guy who sits in the corner.
Peace.
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Terry
Big Tex opined:
" But as for God, if he were to step in and solve one problem, say drugs, then I for one would want to know why he doesn't solve child abuse, or world hunger, or war and so on. Where does he stop? And at some point then, with him calling the shots on how to live, what to eat, how to think, wouldn't our own independent thought and free will cease? Wouldn't we be nothing more than marionettes with God pulling the strings?"
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No no no, a thousand times no. Did I mention: "no"?
Let me try and explain why I strongly disagree with this. I've given it a great deal of thought. The whole "free will" argument is bogus. It isn't well thought out. People just say it automatically. If we didn't have free will we'd just be puppets or robots. NO.
Imagine you are going to design a car. Whenever somebody gets inside the car, sometimes the door opens and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the car starts and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it goes forward and sometimes it might just go backward regardless of the gear shift indicator. Would this car be worth owning? After all, the car is a glorified tool for travel. Shouldn't a tool have a purpose and be functional for its purpose?
Imagine you turn on your computer and it turns itself back off again. Or, you'll type in a website address and the computer takes you somewhere else entirely. Would that be a useful and worthwhile computer to own?
(One more)
Imagine you own a pet and the pet craps in the house, pees on you while you're watching tv and bites your children when they pet it. Are you happy with this pet? Is it going to stay in your house very long?
Now what do all the above have to do with any discussion of FREE WILL?
Things with a purpose are not of any value at all if they don't serve their purpose. The element of unpredictability makes them unreliable and even dangerous.
Nobody would design an unpredictable machine on purpose. Nobody would own a computer or even a pet that was more trouble than it was worth.
If you will agree with just that one statement we can continue. If you don't buy that; then, you can stop reading now and go on to something else. We won't be having any meeting of the minds. But, if you can agree that UNPREDICTABLE behavior in a machine, a tool or a pet is a nusiance and of little benefit (if not an outright danger) then read on. There is more.
Life consists of doing things. Doing things requires choices. Agreed?
Most of life's problems happen when we DON'T KNOW which choice to make. Or, when we make the wrong choice. Agreed?
Which would you prefer?
1.Automatically having the correct information that enables a perfect choice?
or
2.Trying to make the best choice and perhaps getting it screwed up?
Further, what if you had the INSTINCT to eat the right food? What if you had the INSTINCT to exercise? What if you had the INSTINCT to avoid harmful activities? Would having the CORRECT INSTINCT be in any way inferior to making a wrong guess?
Think of a quiz show as an example. Is it better to KNOW the answers to the quiz and win all the money? Or, is it in some way preferable to guess and perhaps get it wrong?
What if correct knowledge WAS INSTINCTUAL? What if there was no false information that could mislead you? Would you prefer taking your chances without the right answers? Is a hit and miss strategy really better?
Now I know I've belabored this point over and over. But, I'm trying to set up my presentation so that the fundamental idea comes through loud and clear. Here it is:
WHAT WORKS is always better than WHAT MIGHT work.
Or, to put a fine point on it: there is no advantage to having free will because all free will offers in place of instinctive correctness is the opportunity to screw something up.
INSTEAD OF GOD SOLVING ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS we would not make them in the first place IF ONLY WE DIDN'T HAVE THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE TO MAKE WRONG CHOICES.
Instead of Freedom of choice being a wonderful benefit to mankind; it has ruined us in every way. As long as we make guesses, choose hurtful schemes, insist on the freedom to harm and destroy; we create enough evil to make life a disaster.
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Big Tex
Forgive me Terry, but my belief has more to do with where God draws the line than free will. I'm sorry I mentioned the phrase 'free will' as I know it is a trigger here. I recognize that I am treading on very thin ice here. My belief revolves not so much around free will, but boundaries and my belief in humanity's innate goodness.
As I mentioned before, if God intervenes and 'solves' one problem humanity has, say for example child abuse, where does he stop? At what age does it become 'child' abuse? In this country we decide one under the age of 18, and yet that standard hasn't always worked perfectly. If God were to apply something similar, would he intervene when a 19 year old boy has sex with a 17 year old girl? Wouldn't that fall under 'child abuse'?
And even if he solved that problem to our satisfaction there would be those who would scream for him to solve drugs, world hunger, disease and so on. Where does he stop?
Again this is something I'm coming to believe. I'm not there yet. But I am coming to believe that God gives humanity respect for the intelligence, desire and wherewithall to solve our own problems. IF we want to solve them.
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Big Tex
More to the title of this thread, humanity is capable of the most beautiful dreams as well as the most hideous nightmares. I believe evil happens because some embrace one to the exclusion of the other. I believe we have the power to conquer evil, but I also believe that we won't until several billion people act as one.
And yes I'm a preachy, idealistic buffoon.
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ezekiel3
Terry has touched on something quite profound:
What if correct knowledge WAS INSTINCTUAL? What if there was no false information that could mislead you? Would you prefer taking your chances without the right answers? Is a hit and miss strategy really better?
WHAT WORKS is always better than WHAT MIGHT work.
Ok then, animals are superior to humans. Does anyone judge animals wicked or murderous?. There are no animal religions or governments are there? Animals do not destroy their environment to their own detriment. Why? Because they operate according to program (instinct).
So if God created humans and angels with a capacity for evil, why is God so surprised that someone (in fact most) choose "evil"? If an MIT professor made a robot that could choose to do good or evil, and that robot decided to start killing people, who would be responsible for the murders? The professor.
Thank God for evil.
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Terry
I think I understand.
I also think the problem is with the premise: god.
God is the one who doesn't have the free will.
We either have to change the definition of God as all-powerful, all-knowing, loving, just, a parent etc, or,
rid ourselves of the false premise.
It is painful to do that. It "feels" like we are killing our own parents.
But, one night, as I was about to go to sleep I knelt by my bed as I always had since I was a tiny boy. I put my palms together the way my grandmother showed me as a child. I earnestly sought the deepest and most profound part of me for expressions of worth to offer my heavenly father.
I began my prayer as I always did: "Heavenly father, Jehovah....."
And then I stopped. I opened my eyes and unclasped my hands.
It was suddenly clear as daylight. It was amazingly clear. I was just talking TO MYSELF. There was nobody there but me.
It was like waking from a lifelong dream. The dream was over.
There was nobody there. Only me.
I've not prayed since. I'm enormously relieved to know, finally, that I am in charge of my own life. If it gets screwed up--it isn't demons and it isn't angelic guidance and it isn't the hand of gawd.
None of us has a channel of communication to a super being; an invisible daddy. Nobody is looking out for us. There is no vast plan of the ages. There is no heaven and no Armageddon. There are no sacred mysteries. There are no end day prophecies to puzzle over.
There are only opportunities to make each day a little better for myself and the people around me.
I get a space of time in which to figure out everything I am able to figure out. I get to take my best shot. I can try and mend the world in some small way, or, merely take up space and waste time.
Once I let go of that illusion, that dream, that invisible parent "out there"; once I stopped talking to myself as though there was anything but imagination---I began to heal.
That's where I'm coming from. If there really was the kind of God we all grow up thinking lurks in the heavens---I'd expect a bit more out of the old boy. The instinct to do good would go a long way.
As it is. We're own our own.
Just one man's opinion. Your mileage may vary.
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dh
my opinion is that if there is an almighty god, its actions depend on its mood at the time, all of which are whimsical, created life for its own indulgence. whether that is evil or not, i don't know, i guess that is down to what everyones perception of evil is.
no religion can answer the number of god sanctioned killings in the bible, if we work it out on bodycount alone (providing we see genocide as evil), jehovah is the godfather of mass murder, and the devil is the one who saw sense and got the hell out of there.
but then some people think it's okay for god to kill because he is god.