If this doesn't work this time please DF me ... my 1/2 day at an IBSA conv.

by Glenmore 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • Glenmore
    Glenmore

    I am neutral on the Bible Students as I liked Russell?s stuff; I even scoffed at the anti-Russell books when I was becoming Borg in 1981. So this isn?t at all criticism. It was a bit refreshing. But this is just one Study period, Lunch, two Discourses and a few breaks, so I just saw and felt what half-a-day in rural Portland Oregon would bring on a sunny Sunday afternoon, August 29.

    I enjoyed it; it was like old times in a way but with no pressure to conform. I now know RR?s real name, and a bunch of folk there know him. A Br. Leslie, great-grandson of Van Amberg (a Rutherford director - his children left in the 20?s) was there. Also, there was a Brit ?sister? who used to live in South Woodford (London E18), where I lived in the late 50?s. Everyone was fine, not that much different than some small older KH?s. There were about 80 people, but a lot from elsewhere. Interestingly, there?s a Bible Student Retirement Center in Gresham OR, about two blocks from my mother-in-law, where about 30 meet in what sounded like 2 ecclessias. One a bit more liberal than the other - which I think meant one was Very Pastor Russell and the other wasn?t. I don?t think it?s much more than respect but at least one of the speakers was convinced that CTR was the 7 th messenger.

    Does the WTS have a retirement center, I dunno just a thought?

    I did meet one convert; the rest seemed to be raised-in-its. As you might expect (and a lot like the Benfleet Essex congregation) there were few young people; and just a couple of kids ? RR sez that depends on the area. I liked the fact there were lots of breaks and the hymnal had regular hymns in it as well as IBSA ones. There?s a lot of ?old? language as the KJV was the most referred to. I didn?t hear the word Jehovah except when talking about me. As an apostate XJW the word got around quickly. All very pleasant, especially as I am not anti-Russell. They know more about the JDubyas than vice versa. They can have different opinions, even on doctrine. Imagine that! And I heard that from the stage too, that was refreshing. Different opinions about ?sleeping saints? apparently.

    There are about 10,000 worldwide in ecclesias (classes) ? RR sez no one really knows as there?s no central authority to keep track. There are two in Portland (Gresham and Tigard) but the Gresham one has two sides (liberal/conservative?). A few of the ones I talked to traveled a lot. Places like India and Romania. They use the Internet a lot and keep in touch via email. It was kinda sweet. Without the Rutherford, Knorr and Franz influence they don?t count time and magazine placements, and they have no personal records apparently. You can come and go as you please. Most of the women wear a head covering, many are like lace doilies, but this is a personal preference not a requirement. As I recall in Russell?s day women couldn?t speak in the congregation. They do now. And like many sisters I knew, their comments were insightful, actually most were.

    The Study session was on Right Habits. The program contained the scripture Phil 4:8, a reference to a reprint of a Tower R4826-4828 and 6 questions (I don?t think they like to say Watch Tower). And that went on for one hour, and it wasn?t boring, and personal opinions were shared, different ways to think of the ?right things?. And because they are all consecrated (which I assume is being anointed but without being a separate, special class) there was a lot of heavenly references, about the other side of the veil.

    Brother Bill from Winnipeg had me come to lunch with him and his wife. Lunch was family style. I talked the ear off him and Mike, the Operations Manager from the retirement center. One of the points they made was how frustrating it was for the Bible Students of yore to wait on the Lord while Rutherford took control of the WTS. Apparently a number of them had found their suitcases outside Bethel when they came in one day. [RR sez many left as soon as Rutherford took over, realizing the poor character of the man] If you weren?t a Rutherford man you were out. They consider that Rutherford and the JWs left the Truth, not vice versa. He?s the man of sin and the evil slave.

    Bill said there were some that had a speculation about 2033/4 - I had told him about the dubs latest 2034. But it was something to do with so many years past 1874 (the original 1914). He also said someone had 1994 as the date - 120 years past 1874, sounds familiar? But it was spoken of fairly lightheartedly. It didn?t matter, they would go to Heaven when the time came. Bill said that there would have to be peace in literal Israel first.

    Mike was a 25-yr-convert and liberal (his words). And he said that at the table and nobody looked at him funny or got up to leave. He said out loud that some Students hang on every word from Pastor Russell, he didn?t but he respected his work. Bill said that he knew a few JWs that had left and had attended their meetings but were quite content having the earth to look forward to (the general resurrection of mankind) because they never wanted to get caught up in a religion again, and periodically attended their meetings but wanted no further involvement.

    The hymn that started the afternoon was something like the Battle Hymn of the Republic, definitely a regular hymn. One Discourse was a PowerPoint presentation; the other had a handout on doctrinal differences in Thessalonians. They were both very Pastor Russell, but there was no quoting chapter and verse, just referring to this Volume or that. But heavily referenced to the Bible.

    Plenty of books - Russell reprints, The Volumes, Pyramids, Israel. Since the ecclesias are autonomous - no Brooklyn - they publish their own newsletter, Internet sites etc. etc.

    Anyway, I liked it and I?ll probably go to a meeting in Gresham sometime. As a natural pantheist I can?t see myself becoming ?anything? but as G-d is in all things that includes the Bible Students

    Glen

  • Glenmore
    Glenmore

    It worked, AND I have more than 100 posts. Life is good!

  • kls
    kls

    Glen ,you are saved my brother.

  • Glenmore
    Glenmore

    Thank you Baby Jesus, I mean kls

  • RR
    RR

    I just notice you started a new thread after the failed one. I cut and pasted the post on the other forum for you.

    Anyway, glad you enjoyed your half day with the Bible Students. See, we're not so bad!

  • minimus
    minimus

    Very interesting! I still don't get it, though......Seriously.

  • Glenmore
    Glenmore

    A couple of other thoughts.

    It really bothers me that the WTS has taken away the prospect of being spirit-begotten at the rank and file level. This is very Phariseeic, blocking up the way to G-d. It's not that I personally want, or expect, to go to Heaven, it's just others of us might have liked that notion, rather than the second tier promises. And if you had any heavenly leanings you soon learned that wasn't for you. That's evil, controlling another's ability to choose for themselves.

    I like the notion of a general ressurection of all mankind. I believe that, but probably not the same way as the Bible Students do. You know, I was baptized before I did NOT know that was the JDubya Current Truth. I mean to say, that's what I believed, I even said so during my 120, or was it 80, questions before getting baptized. The elder said nothing, I remembered that, deliberately nothing, I noticed but I thought no more than that. He was a different elder to the one that lied to me about the Blood Issue. see a bunch of things under my old handle, Deleted. Anyway I think it is arrogant of our alma mater to consider their "great crowd" as the Only ones probably to be saved.

    In many cultures, great and small, there is a lot of love, a lot of life and a lot to look forward to. Way different than the "worldly people and apostates" we were told of by the anonymous Theo-Bureaucracy in Brooklyn. We were poisoned by our Mother of anything that smells of Religion. It's a shame, it would have been nice to drift to a non-denominational church of bible students. But I am past that and it's okay, I can now see Religion in many lights not just the JDubya one.

    I also wonder if being convinced that your future is Heavenly makes you a "better" Christian. Do you suppose that the new testament being written for just the Annointed put the Great Crowd on a less spiritual plane? RR says that among the Association of Bible Students, Salvation is only up to you as individuals, so do the JDubyas say that but by the subtle control by the collective Society conscience shows the WTS can't possibly mean it. I believe The Society (ie males with senior organizational influence) truly think the rank and file are idiots, unable to think for themselves and need to be occupied selling magazines and going to meetings so they don't get into trouble or become a nuuisance. And that's evil too. Rutherford was the Evil Slave.

    Glen

  • Glenmore
    Glenmore

    Min, anything in particular you don't get? I mean do you mean I wrote awkwardly or why in the world would I spend one of the last sunny Sundays of the year with the Russellite folk? Glen

  • minimus
    minimus

    "Rutherford was the evil slave".....and Russell was the faithful one?? C'mon, Glen. You're trading one pony show for another. They're still peddling their pyramids and other false prophecies. RR got some great rebuttals on a thread regarding how since 1874 we've been in the time of the end and we've seen modern miracles of science esp. since this time....Horsesfeathers!!

  • RR
    RR

    You'll NEVER understand Min. You're so blinded by your hatred of the Society and all it represents! The Bible STudents are much more than pyramids and prophecy!

    RR

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