John 10:10 (page 2)

Narkissos

I tend to agree with the "right now" emphasis. The "eternal life" in John (as in most Gnostic writings) is clearly not a future reward:

anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life

Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die."

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Another related thing I loved in GJohn when I left the JWs is the freedom connected to this "life" (8:31f). I may be wrong, but I felt that in the previous verse of chapter 10:

I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.

In this "come in and go out", I hear something quite different from the usual "salvation in the Church"...

Does 'having life to the full' necessarily mean it's all happy and smiles? Maybe it involves a relief from suffering, but then again people think of suffering as pain and other things that are just part of life. An American zen teacher used to say 'all true love sheds a tear.' Most people just don't want to live that fully, they want to have the so-called negative emotions taken from them. Well guess what, if you're not familiar with that then that's an aspect of life you can't relate with, and you can't relate with people who have gone or are going through that in their life. How can you have life to the full if you're trying to get away from some aspect of it?

frankiespeakin

Dawn,

John 10:10: The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full

I don't think Jesus ever said that,, it seems to be a sales pitch to join and stay joined to that particular Christian community that was responsible for writting this so-called Gospel Of John. The thiefs are no-doubt those that don't strickly hold to the teachings of this particular community and have gained some converts from among them,,this redaction was probably an effort to stave off further sheep stealling. The warning implied: only those that hold to the teachings of the "jesus" of this community would get life,, the rest would parish who followed the thiefs.

zen nudist

Personally I despise the "prosperity gospel" (that states that being a Christian will cause your every whim of prayer to be answered, regarding health, wealth and bodily comfort), but I also believe that some Christians bring undue trouble on themselves by being arrogant, rude, and generally obnoxious.

the hebrew bible has nothing but the prosperity gospel, look around it, there is no hope for heaven or immortality given to anyone in the law of moses, it is strictly if you obey me you will have this that and the other now....if you dont then you will shat upon...

most misery and suffering for westerners at least, arises because they reject the concept that reality is simply what it is and demand it to be what it is not.

LittleToe

Zen:
We're talking about John 10:10, though, not the OT.

most misery and suffering for westerners at least, arises because they reject the concept that reality is simply what it is and demand it to be what it is not.

I agree.
Accepting that doesn't mean that one doesn't strive to improve one's lot, either.

Narkissos

The Johannine writings are full of paradoxes.

The "light", "joy", "eternal life", "salvation" combine with a highly pessimistic worldview: it shines "in the darkness" or "in the world" which remain desperately alien to it.

The most unbound concept of God ("God is Love") combines with the most sectarian view of the community ("They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us").

Nothing is simple.

Markfromcali

Yes, nothing is simple. To be or not to be, Hot or Not, the answer to all these is yes. You will not find the understanding in a dualistic mind that wants to cling to one or the other. All that's good for is mental 'busywork.'

Markfromcali

Narkissos, since you brought up the scripture about the gate and going in and out, and paradox, have you heard of the Gateless Gate? If I remember correctly it is a commentary on zen koans. Just kind of relates.

frankiespeakin

I think we need to remember that the gospel of John is full of redactions(later additions). These additions were made to meet the needs of the christian community from which they originated. They made up saying of jesus or changed what were thought to be jesus words to fit thier purpose, just like the WT and other religions do today.

Narkissos

Mark,

Is it this one?

http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/cgi-bin/koan-index.pl

Frankie,

I agree with you re: GJohn. But how do you think this affects the present topic?

John 10:10

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