The Questions from Readers has affirmed that the 144,000 is a literal number. It states that some numbers in Revelation are symbolic and others are literal. It argues that since the Great Crowd which is unnumbered is mentioned right after the 144,000, then logically the 144,000 would have to be literal. The article also gives the argument that the 1,000-year reign of Christ is literal, so the WT is not wrong in saying that the 144,000 is also literal. Any comments?
144,000 a literal number
by Bonnie_Clyde 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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under74
Umm...I thought this was always the case. Did the JWs ever say those numbers weren't literal? If they did, I must have missed it. Or maybe they said it after I left?
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Bonnie_Clyde
Sorry I wasn't clear. No, they have never said the 144,000 is not literal. I just need some ammunition to show that their argument about the 1,000 year reign being literal, therefore the 144,000 must be (or could be) literal is wrong. Also the argument that since there is a "unnumbered" Great Crowd mentioned, that the 144,000 must logically be literal.
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Narkissos
An admittedly simplistic argument (the best in this case):
Are the 12,000 figure for each of the twelve tribes (Rev. 7:5-8) making up the 144,000 (v. 4) symbolical or literal?
How does the addition of 12 symbolical figures come up to a literal one?
Are the measurements for the New Jerusalem, i.e. 144 cubits (Rev. 21:17), with 12 gates and 12 foundations, symbolical or literal?
OK, if you don't get it, forget it...
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Kenneson
By the way, there are some churches which do not believe that the Millennium or thousand year reign is a literal figure. I quote from the Catholic Bible: "Like the other numerical values in this book, the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ's resurrection-victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God's people share in the glorious reign of God which is present to them in virtue of their baptism-victory over death and sin (Rom. 6:1-8; Jn. 5:24; 16:33; 2Jn. 3:14; Eph. 2:1)."
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johnny cip
if your talking about the sept 1 2004 wt pg 30 . they are quoting dr robert l. thomas . and dr. thomas totally disagrees with the wt on the 144k. it can be found on johnankerberg.org. under prophecies rev 7... so the wt lies again
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Bonnie_Clyde
I looked on the John Ankerburg site but couldn't find where it said that Professor Robert L. Thomas disagreed with the WT on the 144,000 issue. What exactly did he say?
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Flash
I think they're right on this one. Their currant explaination is differant from how they explained it before. I think their first one is better. They said that "the Lamb" in Revalation 14:1 was Jesus and and since there is only one "Lamb of God" the 144,000 standing with "him" must be a true number, not symbolic. Also, they said it was unreasonable to think that the statement made in verse one would be split and be both literal and symbolic....It makes sense to me.
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Narkissos
Flash,
Your (or the WT's) argument about the mixing of literal and symbolical figures reminded me of my questions above, namely:
Are the 12,000 figure for each of the twelve tribes (Rev. 7:5-8) making up the 144,000 (v. 4) symbolical or literal?
How does the addition of 12 symbolical figures come up to a literal one?
Are the measurements for the New Jerusalem, i.e. 144 cubits (Rev. 21:17), with 12 gates and 12 foundations, symbolical or literal?
Would you care to tell how you would address them?
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gumby
The WTBTS cherry picks which part of the scripture in Rev. 7 concerning the 144,000 to fit their existing doctrine, that being the teaching of an alcoholic that people are meant to live on the earth and not in heaven and that only the elite will rule....he being one of them of course.
If the number is literal, then why is not the fact that these ones are all men literal? Why isn't that one literal? Why is not the 12 tribes literal as Nark mentioned? Why is not the songs they sing literal and their wings literal, and the horns they blow literal, and the robes they wear literal. The only thing literal about them is their number according to the Organisation. How convieneint!
Gumby