Were does the responsibility lie?

by mjarka911 17 Replies latest jw friends

mjarka911

3 of us ex-mind/social control victims met yesterday for breakfast in the Chicago area and discussed the subject of culpability within the Wt org. Where do you think the responsibility lies. Is everyone on the congregational level guilty because at one time or another we all had doubts that we compartmentalized? Does it just start with the elders who know the double standards and inconsistencies, or are they just as much victims as us because they are told from HQ that the GB has God's spirit? One person even argued that the GB members themselves might really believe the bullshit somehow and delude themselves. Who is responsible for the damage done to families, lives society because of this fantasy belief system?
frenchbabyface

To me everyone has is own responsability at his own level and position.
(deluded or not) cause we are somehow irresponsible in believing in inconsistencies and to base our choices on ... it's not that simple as we are talking about religion ... but it still true (as individual without a real threat on your head, or real blur in the situation, you have the time to think) ... but again religion is blur
The one who is responsible is the one who knows that something is wrong and don't work on it in the way to preserve everybody (not only her/himself) so in the matter and in religion particularly you've got a range of different level of responsabilities. That's why I have a probleme with my mother who acknoledge that lots of things were and are wrong and still pionnering for this company ... in telling that it is the truth like testifying as a witness : she is responsible.
kwintestal

You know mj, that's something I've often pondered myself. Who's fault is it all?
Here's other questions that I had and ones that kept my wife in the org. for so long and I'm sure other JW's questioning the real truths about the WTS asks.
"Why would the GB cover up their mistakes? What purpose would it serve since they are humble humans? What is in it for them?"
There's the obvious travel perks, but other then that what does the GB get for the WTS massive aquisitions?
Don't they live in similar quarters as other bethel servents? Do they have WTS cars? Do they get WTS AMEX cards to spend on lavish dinners with other coroprate execs?
Kwin
iiz2cool

I was not raised as a JW, but became one as an adult, so I can't fully understand the effects of the mind control on someone who was indoctrinated from birth. But in my own case, even when I got baptized I had some doubts that I put on the back burner, thinking these concerns would be answered in due time. I got involved with the JWs at a time when I was emotionally vunerable, and the things they said sounded good at the time. So when they did say something that sent up a red flag, such as not reading literature that is critical of the watchtower, I just accepted it for the time being. It wasn't until after I was baptized that I began to see many other things wrong with the watchtower. By the time I realized it was an abusive cult it was too late to leave unscathed.

It didn't take long to see the double standards and inconsistencies, and because I voiced my concern of some of these to elders, I never made "progress" in the congregation. I'm sure they viewed me as a malcontent. I don't think it's possible for someone to become an elder without being aware of the double standards, inconsistencies, and knowing how to 'play the game'. One ministerial servant once told me, "It's not who you know, it's who you blow".

I'm sure the governing body knows it's all bullshit. They not only know how to play the game, they make the rules. It's not possible for someone to be that deeply involved and not see it for what it is, unless they're completely delusional. While I believe they are responsible for their damaging policies that destroy lives and families, I also believe that each individual that upholds such policies when his conscience tells him it's wrong must also share that responsibility.

The watchtower is wrong to tell parents to shun their children. The parents are wrong to obey the watchtower rather than listen to their own common sense.

They cannot absolve themselves from responsibility of their wrongdoing by saying they were obeying some "higher authority".

Walter
frenchbabyface

Izzy2Cool : ... One ministerial servant once told me, "It's not who you know, it's who you blow".

I'm sure the governing body knows it's all bullshit. They not only know how to play the game, they make the rules.
Yeah it means what it means ...
Well explained BTW ...
kwintestal

They not only know how to play the game, they make the rules.

rule 1: They rules may change at any given time without prior notice.
Kwin
AlanF

Excellent comments so far!
I think that each and every one of Jehovah's Witnesses has some blame for the sorry state of their organization. It's not possible for anyone above the intelligence level of a crab to become a JW without noticing a lot of bullshit along the way, because people are exposed to all sorts of information that ought to make them take a second look at what JW leaders have taught them. It certainly worked that way for me, both while I was growing up as a JW and later, after I nearly left but was coaxed back by pressure from parents who threatened cutting off.
People who become JWs always find things that they at first disagree with, but they put these problems away because, for emotional reasons, they want what they're learning to be "the Truth", and so they assume that they're too dumb to understand, and so put responsibility for their bad choices on the JW organization. "Leave it in Jehovah's hands; eventually I'll understand" is the motto.
Some years ago I was going through the last gasps of my devotion to the JW organization, and I asked my JW parents a number of difficult questions. They put off every one with excuses and the usual JW responses -- and they knew perfectly well that they weren't giving good answers. They even used their connections with some Bethel higher-ups to try to answer my questions, but of course even a GB member couldn't answer them, and refused even to try. So in a telephone conversation I said to my mom, "Mom, if you had a Bible student who asked the same questions I'm asking, how would you handle it?" She said, "Well, I'd try to convince them to put off the questions until they understood all of our teachings and got baptized." I said, "Ok fine, but after they got baptized, how would you answer the questions?" She said, quite huffily, "Well I'd hope that by then they'd have enough sense not to ask them anymore!" I said, "Mom, do you realize what you just tole me?" "No," she said. I said, "You just told me that you'd lie to your Bible student. Doesn't that tell you something about the way you're dealing with me?" She became quite upset and handed the phone to my stepdad, saying "I can't deal with this!" So when JWs go through this process of deceiving people, they're also deliberately deceiving themselves, and therefore bear responsibility for accepting things they know or suspect are wrong.
When I was about 20 years old I had strong second thoughts about the JW religion, and I nearly left. I lived in the New York area which is quite expensive to live in, and having been raised as a JW had no skills other than those required to be a JW, so I couldn't find a decent paying job. I was still living with my parents because I couldn't afford my own apartment on the minimum wage I earned. My parents at the time were disfellowshipped but very much wanting to be JWs again, and their attitude of worship of the Holy Organization has never changed. I attended a congregation different from the one where they went to meetings, and so when I developed doubts I was able to fool them into thinking I was still attending meetings for awhile. Eventually my Mom found out, and they confronted me. I said that I didn't want to be a JW anymore. After a lot of heated discussion, they convinced me to begin "studying the Bible" from scratch with a young elder. They also said that if I didn't do this, I would have to leave the house and find my own place, which obviously was not possible if I didn't want to live on the street. This was a particularly nasty threat because all of my friends were JWs and would give me no help if I left. So I caved, and began another "Bible study". At one point I started thinking deeply about the logic of the ransom sacrifice doctrine, and found that it didn't make sense. I mean, it amounted to God's taking away "perfection" with one hand, and then blaming mankind for not having it, and then going to a lot of trouble in providing Jesus as a "ransom sacrifice" to undo what he had done, all along declaring what a Wonderful Guy he is and that he's therefore worthy of worship. You know the drill. The elder I was studying with was completely unable to answer my questions, and of course, no one else could either. So I was faced with a choice: accept what I knew to be a nonsensical teaching and move on, or live on the street. I chose the former. I now know that it would have been wiser in the long run to choose the latter. In mental self-defense, I decided not to think about the problems, but that didn't last.
The point of all this is that I know from various personal experiences exactly how JW mind control works, and I know that virtually all JWs know it too. But like me at one time, the bad choices we made were so onerous that we decided to quit thinking about them, and immersed ourselves in the cult.
AlanF
Englishman

At one point I started thinking deeply about the logic of the ransom sacrifice doctrine, and found that it didn't make sense. I mean, it amounted to God's taking away "perfection" with one hand, and then blaming mankind for not having it, and then going to a lot of trouble in providing Jesus as a "ransom sacrifice" to undo what he had done, all along declaring what a Wonderful Guy he is and that he's therefore worthy of worship.

I remember pointing this one out to my Father and hoping for some meaningful response. To my astonishment he simply declared that if I was going to reject Jesus sacrifice there was no point in discussing it further.
It wasn't what I'd expected at all, I was actually very disappointed that he couldn't answer my question.
Englishman.
garybuss

Another issue of attachment is the illusion of escape from the temptation to sin. My Witness father knows of all the dirty laundry but he LIKES being a Witness. He sees the religion as a safe environment to live in, an environment he likes. He is comfortable being a Witness. He buys all the hooks and spins and is all too happy to reject any who do not also buy into it all.

His religion has made me his enemy. His making me his enemy has made him my enemy. I think he is not unlike many Witnesses . . . happily deluded. GaryB
A Paduan
I can only assume (from the surrounding text) that you are asking two things
1. Do jws have response-ability ?
2. and as such, is 'accountability' proper to them ?
No. 1 It's certainly debatable that many may be able to respond, those who are threatened perhaps less so than those who derive positive gain from it all - indeed I have considered that some may be response-able and choose not, but how could I know? Doesn't that idea involve 'goodness by works' ?
No. 2 is 'accountability' proper ? They judge and judge themselves, and choose the dark - but, is it proper that offspring would be raised in the dark ? hell of a question - it's almost like "does the chicken come before the egg ?"

Were does the responsibility lie?

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