by mjarka911 17 Replies latest jw friends
JN 9:40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"JN 9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
Let the Bible judge them, if they claim to teach it. I think that people are responsible if they insist they have authority to speak. The GB insists that they do, so they are certainly more culpable if they are wrong.
bebu
The accepted definition of responsibility is not the ability to respond, but the state of being liable to be called to account, as in the following:
I can remember specific occasions when I should have realised that there was a problem with the WTS teachings, and I did not. Those occasions were finding the date of the fall of Jerusalem in a textbook which did not tie in with the WT chronology; and realising that all the references to the role of the WT in fulfillment of Revelation as described in the "Grand Climax" book depended on the assumption that the WT was God's chosen organisation.
In the first case, I assumed without any hesitation whatever, that the WT had the right date and all the other secular and theological sources had it wrong.
In the second case, my observation simply went no further.
Therefore, I think that certainly in terms of the 4th definition of "responsible", I was not responsible.
Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior.
I was completely incapable of questioning what I had been taught. In any case, had I known then what I know now, what could a young woman, with no congregational status, achieve?
From what I have learnt of the organisation and hierarchy since I have left, I have no doubt that there are people in leadership roles who are capable of seeing right through the charade, but who choose to support the infrastructure. To be honest, if you were in your 50s, 60s, 70s......your whole social structure depended on the bOrg, and you had no friends or way of supporting yourself outside of that, what would you do? Really??
Hiya,
As I said between bites from my omlette , there is nothing all that "unusual" about JWs or their leadership. To me, they simply illustrate the incredible ability that humans have for fooling oneself. Emotions are far more powerful for the average person than is reason and logic. Even extremely rational and intelligent people can fool themselves and twist their arguments due to external and internal emotional prodding and pressures. Example: there's an "intelligent design" advocate who has a PhD in biology and, if I'm not mistaken, teaches at an ivy-league school. He's also a Moonie (a Moonie!!). People fool themselves all the time folks.
Ray Franz strikes me, as he does most people, as a fairly intelligent fellow. Yet, he was fooled and fooled himself for decades. Emotions are more powerful than logic. Our emotional side is pre-rational and older than our cognitive side. It doesn't have to "rule" us, but often it makes us reason in such a way that we normally wouldn't. I don't think people who believe in the JWs are dumb. I think most of them simply have such an emotional involvement with the entire issue that they almost cannot even think otherwise.
Remember the reality of the unconscious mind to affect our conscious mind and behavior!
That being said, people still must be held responsible for their actions, even if they are deluded.
More coffee please,
Bradley
New arrivals missed a great dialog on this very subject that occurred a couple years ago between (elder's wife) AMNESIAN and (former elder) Amazing. If you look, you might find it.
Personally, I've come to think that the people most responsible, most guilty, are the PEOPLE WHO KNEW -- or KNOW -- but stay and continue to spew something they know isn't true. Like when Dorothy saw the man behind the curtain. At that point, she knew! To keep saying the same ol' same after that... she'd be wrong. And responsible for whatever she said thereafter.
Everybody else who doesn't know, from the top down -- from the most senior governing body member to the very last bible student -- gets a pass. Forgiveness. I mean... we're all human.
No matter what your position... if you've been tricked, fooled, bamboozled, run amuck... what canya say?
I love this topic! And I am also ashamed.
I have to say that I agonized over this issue of accountability during the time that my eyes were being opened. I was a Ministerial Servant for 9 years. During that time, I would shepherd my book study group and would drop in for visits on those that weren't meeting the 'congregation average' hours. I was SO arrogant and naive! Let me tell you about one of my so-called 'encouraging shepherding' visits:
A married couple in their thirties with two children weren't making all the meetings and were irregular in the ministry (let's call them Brother and Sister "A"). So, I dropped in to encourage them. During that 2 hour visit, here is what I learned about their lives:
· They had just built their first house together, and were in the middle of moving in and getting settled. City hall was giving them problems with zoning rules (they had to tie in an old house to their new structure in order to comply with zoning rules. weird!)
· their mother was horribly ill and they had to have her live with them as well
· Sister A's brother was an extremely suicidal drug addict and no matter how hard she tried, she couldn?t get him the help he needed. (this weighed very heavily on her since she was the only one in her immediate family that was healthy enough to help him)
· Brother A coped with the stress in the family by drowning himself in his job. He went out of his way to stay at work.
· The children were beginning to 'act out' in school. Grades were suffering. No doubt this was in part due to the family stress at home.
And here I come... walking up their driveway... asking why they aren't out in the ministry and at all the meetings. After she and her husband tearfully told me all their challenges. Guess how I consoled them! You guessed it... "Throw your burdens on Jehovah!" ... "Exert yourselves vigorously!"...
I actually told them that if their problems would diminish if they would busy themselves in the ministry and meeting attendance. (I sit here in shame to this day. This event happened over 10 years ago) I was SUCH (!!!) an idiot! Wow!!!
It was only 2 or 3 years later, and MY 15 year marriage fell apart and I had to deal with many of the same issues they were facing at that time. At first, I tried to apply my own advice. In the eyes of all onlookers, I was displaying the most classic case of denial. My wife would be at home drunk out of her skull, my children would be getting into fights at school, my youngest son (4 years old) was pulling chunks of hair out of his head. But - I 'threw my burdens on Jehovah' - and went to all the meetings, kept up my ministry, etc etc. When the entire congregation decided to turn on me - I realized how incredibly stupid such a strategy was. Long story short: We divorced. My wife was disfellowshipped and shortly after that, I was wrongly disfellowshipped (that's a longer story) as my family became a spectacle of dysfunction in our community. (... sigh...)
I was sitting there one day crying my story to a clinical counselor; telling him about how shameful it was for me to have this family that I called dysfunctional. He looked at me very puzzled and asked me why I called it 'dysfunctional'! He said EVERY family has problems. You just have some really BIG problems that you have to deal with. It would only be 'dysfunctional' if you didn't DEAL with the issues in your family. That... would be 'denial'. (Can you see the light bulb come on over my head as he said that??! LOL)
So... back to Brother and Sister "A".
As I sat there in the rubble of what used to be my family, I pondered the discussion I had with them - and realized how utterly INSANE my comments to them were. If there was ONE thing that I learned from my experience... it was that if you have a problem... you DEAL with it!
I knew then that I had some accountability that I had to face. I went over to Brother and Sister A's home... and shamefully expressed my regret over that conversation and advice that I gave them several years earlier. What I found fascinating was the grace with which they accepted my apology. They smiled and said that they KNEW that I ... just ...didn't ... understand!!
In hindsight, I think they were actually rejoicing that I was starting to see how messed up the JW message really is. It was the beginning of my enlightenment. Further, their Christian display of forgiveness (remember, I was still DF'd when I was apologizing to them) set a valuable lesson for me to stop judging others like we were taught to. I got reinstated, and stopped going to meetings shortly after that. I faded.
Brother and Sister A never go to meetings any more.
The Society taught me to be an idiot. But "I" chose to be one. It is up to me to seek forgiveness from those that I sinned against.
Some realize too late. My sister was one of those; she died from not taking blood. I tried to warn
her. I begged her to take the blood but she wouldn't listen.
Certainly, if I had not tried to stop her I would be at least partly responsible for her death.
I find it hard to believe that any person thats been involved with WTS for a long time that is of average intelligence hasn't had some "sign" or inclination that something was wrong and that their is a serious lack of love. Constantly changing light, downright false teachings, harmful and pernicious interpretation of scriptures and meddling into peoples private and personal affairs: ie; shunning, disfellowshiping, taking blood etc.
The only people I can honestly give a pass to would be children and people who are mentally ill, or mentally slow and retarded.
M'
I was adopted into a JW convert family. My mom converted first in the late 30's and my dad finally converted after WWII. (He was a violent asshole and would throw the witnesses off the property when they called on my mom. He should have kept it up!)
My dad was an elder early on, so I was not only raised JW, I was "special". I was also a pretty good kid. They allowed me many freedoms as long as I respected them. The congregation I was in seems pretty damned good compared to some I've heard of, and the one I moved into when I got married.
However, the proverbial "sh*t hit the fan" when I moved back in with them for a month when I had to leave my first husband. I certainly was no longer a brainwashed witness, and simply wasn't about to submit/subject myself to a JC, let alone return to the congregation, even though I went a couple times with them.
The responsibility was with my parents when they raised me. But they raised me well.
The responsibility became mine as an adult, and I accepted it when I quickly faded because of the hypocrisies I witnessed and experienced in the congregation I moved into when I got married.
The responsibility was/is with my parents and other family members for continuing to be deluded and forcing the separation between "them" and me. Although that appears to be far less an issued now that they are in their late 80's.
The ultimate responsibility is the brainwashing of the bOrg. The fear-mongering and keeping the masses ignorant and in line. And with ourselves once the crack in the bOrg psyche occures.
Peace
Brenda
Responsibility is such a weird word to use. Accountability is also strange. It implies a judge or a time of judgement, or at least an absolute standard to measure them against. Which, I think we can all agree, isn't real or isn't going to happen.
Now, who is responsible for each individual escaping? The individuals, obviously.
CZAR
