Cretans always lie, said the Cretan

by euripides 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Leolaia

  IMO the Pastorals advocate a middle way (cf. the constant appeal to sôphrosunè, "sensibleness", the middle-class ethical values, etc.) between Judeo-Christians and Christian Gnostics, and they fight on both fronts. Non-Christian Judaism and Paganism have already gone offstage.

  This would put the Pastorals on similar ideological turf as the Ignatian epistles, which engaged in polemic against the same two groups. But did the author of the Pastorals really see any difference between Judeo-Christians and "Non-Christian Judaism"?
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  euripides

  Leolaia--the difference between Judeo-Christians and non-Christian Judaism for the Pastoralist may have to do with geography, Antioch, Jamnia, what's left of Jerusalem, etc. What I mean by that is the communities which were established in those cities and how they were distinct from each other; insofar as Jamnia become the center of Jewish worship after 70, the influence of the writings of the Pharisaic sages was no longer tenable against the Judeo-Christians who were active in Asia Minor, Syria, etc. I think this is one possibility, even as much as the term "Jewish" is being used as a broad polemic by the Pastoralist.

  I tie in geography because ultimately, the Pastoralist is attacking a Cretan teaching as the corrupt views are associated geographically with the people.
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  Leolaia

  Yes, I understand the importance of local context in the various regions where different Jewish and Christian groups negotiated ideological boundaries between each other, and I have no doubt that Jewish Christians and post-Pharisee Jews of the Syrian synagogues saw each other as very distinct (as attested in the Birket ha-Minim and the gospel of Matthew), but what I was wondering was whether the Pastoralist (whether in Antioch, Asia Minor, or wherever) ideologically did not recognize much of a difference between the two -- perceiving them as equally false and viewing Torah-observant Jewish Christians in particular as not much different from Torah-observant Pharisees.
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  euripides

  Yes, I think the Pastoralist's perception of the two groups is to lump them in similar denouncement, but he may suspect his audience still distinguishes the two, hence the rhetorical devices. And therein you may have found the key to this verse after all...this form of rhetoric appeals to the rationale of the audience but may not reveal the true attitude of the author, insofar as he/she is drawing upon the audience's worldview rather than necessarily subscribing to his own. But I am troubled by that little touch of an affirmation..."this is true," as if there were doubt or that it needed rhetorical emphasis. It's basically what's causing my confusion as to what level the writer is working from. Ultimately, as has been pointed out, the purpose of citing this "prophet's" words is to emphasize the falsity of Cretan claims, which are lumped together with all other incipient Gnostic elements, like genealogies, etc.
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  Narkissos

  Of course the author would theoretically be opposed to Non-Christian Judaism as well. But I fail to see any evidence of real contact with it. I suggest: because Judaism is not a real interlocutor anymore, "Judaism" is available in polemics as a bogey word for "Judeo-Christianity".

  In addition to the geographical issue, I think that religious identities and borders are a decisive factor. In Matthew, in John (where an allusion to an early form of the birkat ha-minim is quite likely, 9:22 etc.), and more faintly in Acts we have the echo of "being expelled from the synagogue" as a painful experience. But the Christian communities of the Pastorals would have nothing to do in a synagogue. They are a completely different religion, and the vast majority of its members are Gentiles (as "Titus" is supposed to be; "Timothy" being construed as a Godfearer, only circumcised for "political" reasons).
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  Leolaia

  Narkissos....What do you think is the likely provenance of the Pastorals? Rome or Asia Minor? I still feel that the Campenhausen hypothesis provides a very elegant explanation of the Pastorals' external links, late date, object, dissemination, and anti-Marcionite outlook.
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  Narkissos

  Leolaia,

  I'm somewhat reluctant to identify the author with a specific 2nd century character, but Campenhausen's suggestion (Polycarp of Smyrna) is very interesting indeed. At the very least it shows what kind of Christianity is involved, and this would pretty well explain the striking resemblances between Polycarp's epistle and 1 Timothy. However this hardly proves anything as to the place of writing, inasmuch as Christians from Asia Minor had emigrated in many places. Polycarp apparently died in Rome and some of his disciples are even found in my birthplace of Lyons (Irenaeus is known as a disciple of Polycarp). Actually in the 2nd-century most Lyonnais Christians (orthodox and heterodox alike) were Greek-speaking and originating from Asia Minor.

  Another thing: we might be wrong in assessing one author for the Pastorals. This is quite probable for 1 Timothy and Titus which are quite similar, but at least parts of 2 Timothy might come from a different and more directly Pauline tradition...
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  frankiespeakin

  Does anyone here think Jesus to be a product of Pauls epileptic siezers. And that the gospels may have spawn from that?? It may be a stupid question I don't know? but it seems that way after listening to you guys at least thats the direction I'm veering towards. I'm not saying anyone here is saying that,,I may have read it here or somewhere else and just have not noticed.
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  Leolaia

  frankiespeakin....You may want to read Earl Doherty's The Jesus Puzzle. I personally don't fully endore his thesis (my thinking at this point is closer to G.A. Wells, who has a similar theory), as I think the situation was much more complex with the Jewish Christians, but he does a terrific job in making a coherent case against the historicity of Jesus and Paul's central role in inventing Christianity.

  Narkissos....There are two relatively new books that go into the issue of Polycarp of Smyrna: Paul A. Hartog's Polycarp and the New Testament and Kenneth Berding's Polycarp and Paul: An Analysis of their Literary and Theological Relationship, both published in 2002. I'm making my way through Hartog's book right now which I know has a detailed discussion of Campenhausen, and I suspect the other book might go into it as well.
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  euripides

  I agree with you Narkissos...2 Timothy is anomalous in places for several reasons, and I suspect from a slightly later date than 1 Tim and Titus. In reflection, it is difficult to grasp how Paul could have developed these quirky preoccupations with organizational issues and quasi-etiquette while he ordinarily has his eye on big picture issues and eschatological panic. Af far as the provenence of Titus, I would reject Rome in favor of more Eastern realms, probably Antioch or Asia Minor, maybe Smyrna in light of Polycarp's style and concerns. Would anyone care to argue a pseudepigraphical effort on the part of Polycarp?