Why ? Why? WHY???

by rune 160 Replies latest jw friends

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Rune, I'm gonna try to answer your 1st post

    1) Why do people need to believe in mystical stuff? For instance, no matter how much proof you think you have, no matter how much you believe what you've picked as correct or what you want to be true, there is no way you can know how the universe came to be, what humanity's united purpose is (if any, doubtful), where we are going, or what we are all doing here right now and why.

    My mind says you are "probably" right. But you and I also know that "nothing is certain". And you seem to be very certain that there is "no way" to know. I think your thinking here may be a little bit limiting. You are setting this artificial limit by saying : "there is no way you can know how the universe came to be, what humanity's united purpose is (if any, doubtful), where we are going, or what we are all doing here right now and why". You do not have any insight capable of letting say this with authority.

    The mundane details of life are right in front of us - live day-by-day, eat, sleep, find a way to pay for shelter and food and the comforts of life, socialize, grow older, grow experienced (I won't say wiser), and so on. Things we can see for ourselves... The details of life we know are true. But THEN, we take enormously huge questions that span a great expanse of information we couldn't possibly know, and every picks and chooses beliefs that custom fit them like they're picking out shoes from a store. If you can't bloody know, why delude yourself into knowing?

    Have you ever thought about knowing through not knowing? I mean just think of this for a minute: If you could absolutely know that you could never know the answer to what is reality,,would your absolute not knowing be an actual knowing? Now you might think I'm just playing with words but if you think about it I think you will agree.

    I do agree that many people delude themselves ,,count me in that crowd,,and I think you will agree that you delude yourself too. You may do so less than the average person,,which is good,,but don't we all delude ourselves in some ways. Some of us may be more critical in our thinking and not fall pray to deceptions of religions and I think that is good,,let no man or group of men tell you what to beleive(governments included),,other seem to have a hard time without answers to life perplexing question and opt to have others do thier thinking for them and accept ready made beleifs in an effort to calm the minds uneasiness of not knowing. I beleive their is no such thing as a true beleif,, I know it sounds paradoxical but if I add because beleif requires faith and faith means resisting doubt. If faith exist then doubt also exist which faith is resisting.

    I'm not looking for a 'some people just need to' answer here, because it's not just some people, it's almost everybody. It drives me crazy wonder why people spend time on these things, discussing which Angel is similar to what biblicar figure, when they are both characters in a book and if there was another holy book everyone believed in that was written a few millennia ago that said Bozo the Clown was a holy figure, then everyone would be arguing or questioning his similarity to other figures in history and his meanings of what he said etc too. What's the deal? Do people ever grow out of being children and just leave the belief in fairy tales behind or what?

    Rune,,I know you know the answer to these questions. But just in case you don't:

    Many people that come here are at different stages of deprogramming from a "mind control" cult that at one time ruled their lives,,not everybody can just snap out of it instantly,,gradually seems to be the basic patern. So you may get annoyed at some of the subject matter of some threads,,because they are on subjects you consider a waste of time,,well chalk it up to we all come out of mind control at our own pace.

    It seems not. Someone educate me on why people think spirituality is a tangible, necessary part of life, because I have none and see absolutely no need for it whatsoever. My best guess is it is a hobby some people enjoy, and spiritually-related things are one of the easiest most broad ideas to pick up to bring you into a community of other like-minded want-to-know-something-they-can't kind of people.

    You see no need for spirituality what so ever? Are you sure?

    I look at it as a hobby I guess,,a semiserious hobby,,when I think about the mind,,about thoughts,,desires I think that is spirituality,,and I'm always asking questions,,it not that I'm forcing my mind to do it it just dose it all be itself,,and I have given up trying to suppress it,,so I think I'm just enjoying letting my mind run free. I don't nessasarily need to be around any group that thinks like me,,I think that leads to group think.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    OK, then. Let me try a different tack - the original question was, now correct me if I'm wrong about this, but: Why do people insist on a) spiritual explanations b) a greater purpose for the species of humanity versus the animals???

    You insist that 95 percent of the human experience with the spiritual is a delusion. This does not strike you as being a bit dogmatic? I mean, I have heard the opposite argument, that ninetyfive percent of the spiritual experience that did not revolve around the Watchtower was actually the worship of demons, and even back then that struck me as a bit of a hard line to take.

    You started the debate, not about whether or not the spiritual experience is real, falsifiable, or even a positive thing, but rather over the human compulsion to find a spiritual explanation for Life, the Universe, and Everything. You insisted, from the start of the debate, that all spiritual experiences are delusions, fancies, and the products of a deep and abiding human need for comfort. When your founding statement is so patently closed to discussion, then what are you really asking the question for? What were you trying to accomplish by starting this thread? If you are really so uncurious as to ignore something that is either encoded in your DNA or a product of a soul or both, then why even ask the question? What do you care what we believe as long as we sit still and pay taxes?

    I would suggest that the question, with all the attendant frustration and apparent arrogance is actually a product of your own psychic hunger, the repressed desire to connect with the Unverse, God, and the rest of humanity on a level undefinable by science.

    CZAR

  • frenchbabyface
    frenchbabyface

    Rune,

    Again I'm sorry ... And no you shouldn't give up ... Maybe you should join another kind of forum or creat your own (please let me know) Based on what you are expecting ...

    About that : you just have to put off one word to get an answer ...

    CZAR : I would suggest that the question, with all the attendant frustration and apparent arrogance is actually a product of your own psychic hunger, the repressed desire to connect with the Unverse, God, and the rest of humanity on a level undefinable by science.

    Science have talked and will talk for now we have the right to say why why why we do not explore things on logical and reachable bases only. (cause is god existe is he Buddhist ? Christian ? Muslem ? ... whatever is he just a spirit in everyone of us as we could be just a part of mother nature) NO PROOF, NOTHING TANGIBLE means NOTHING logical to work on, that can really help !

    what about just being proactive

    You think, they think, we think but were does it lead ? ... and about :

    Connect with the Unverse, God, and the rest of humanity on a level undefinable by science

    We're not gonna connect and join the rest of the humanity on this level (see what it does) it's not about exposing a viewpoint or another it's about working on the same base that are reachable and can be shared by everybody (then you have the right to believe in whatever you want - believable or not) A COMMON BACKGROUND / COMMON RELIEFS is what we ALL need ... (God will understand ... don't you think cause again : is god existe is he Buddhist ? Christian ? Muslem ? ... whatever is he just a spirit in everyone of us as we could be just a part of mother nature))

    Also If I can understand that some have hard time to deal with REAL TALKING ... just think about what it can bring ... Less bad faith (bab faith is one of the biggest issue in human kinds lifes) ... I'm all for IT ! And my son and anyone is allowed to slap me (verbally) ... It wouldn't be the first time that we are wrong ! I just don't want to stay in the wrong too long (what is good in that ?)

    That is why I support Runes (and some others way) as being proactive, and way more effective when it comes to get the point on logical/objective bases. (that we are not allowed to dismisse as logical and objective) but that's what people want to do and then they cry because he/she/whoever is able to make a point in dissmissing there's... of course ... WHY ? ... well it's logical or objective ... see you can't fight the logic and objectivity very long that's just irrational ...) and when you'll be able to proove what you think it won't be irrational cause you will be able to put it as a fact. What will anybody be able to say about it. NOTHING

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    FBB, he wanted to know why? Why? WHY??? do we still believe? We tried to tell him. But he'll just have to learn on his own.

    That is why I support Runes (and some others way) as being proactive, and way more effective when it comes to get the point on logical/objective bases. (that we are not allowed to dismisse as logical and objective) but that's what people want to do and then they cry because he/she/whoever is able to make a point in dissmissing there's... of course ... WHY ? ... well it's logical or objective ... see you can't fight the logic and objectivity very long that's just irrational ...)

    Okay, he started from an advanced point in the discussion. Sure. Okay. But we as believers can't answer his question without going back to rethink conclusions he has already made. Unless he intended this thread to be a believer basher, where those of like mind get together to reinforce their conclusions. In which case I apologize for intruding.

    Besides, God is a white Christian American male with a rebel flag and a deer in the back of his pickup. Everyone knows that...

    CZAR

  • frenchbabyface
    frenchbabyface

    Okay, he started from an advanced point in the discussion. Sure. Okay. But we as believers can't answer his question without going back to rethink conclusions he has already made. Unless he intended this thread to be a believer basher, where those of like mind get together to reinforce their conclusions. In which case I apologize for intruding.

    Ok I understand
    but see from my viewpoint it was not a believer bashing it was lets get our head out of the mud (that doesn't help)

    You don't have to apologize for intruding ... but realise that if you aint got an argument that stand ... Well ???

    Besides, God is a white Christian American male with a rebel flag and a deer in the back of his pickup. Everyone knows that...

    LOL you joker !
    I would not care if he was (actually) just NO PROOF

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief
    I would not care if he was (actually) just NO PROOF

    I'm here, ain't I? Look upon me, and marvel, ye mortals!

    So you want proof? What would it take to convince you? I notice that Rune didn't answer that question either. What proof, specifically, in your own life (you can't use somebody else's problems as a measuring stick) would you need, or want?

    CZAR

  • frenchbabyface
    frenchbabyface

    you can't use somebody else's problems as a measuring stick
    here you go ... lets stay on common bases ...
  • frenchbabyface
    frenchbabyface

    What would it take to convince you? I notice that Rune didn't answer that question either

    No proof ... no "real" answer ... so why ?

  • frenchbabyface
    frenchbabyface

    Also, but that's truly personnal, I don't think we need to believe in god to be a good person ... (you have them both sides, and to me most are) so can we focus only on the good (BE POSITIVE and PRO ACTIVE) instead of Focus on "hypothetical" GODs in knowing where it leads ??? what would A COHERENT AND LOVING GOD want ?

    Comon bases :

    = good is good / bad is bad (if we stay on the bases - and the real message - you have no reason to disagree)

    Also sometimes you have to slap (verbally) our kids / but admit that sometimes we deserve to be slaped (it should work both way or we become egocentric - nothing to do with love and understanding)

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief
    Also, but that's truly personnal, I don't think we need to believe in god to be a good person ... (you have them both sides, and to me most are) so can we focus only on the good (BE POSITIVE and PRO ACTIVE) instead of Focus on "hypothetical" GODs in knowing where it leads ??? what would A COHERENT AND LOVING GOD want ?

    I don't deny that atheists or agnostics can be good people. I know this to be true. Just look at you!

    BUT! This thread is about WHY people believe in God; as opposed to proving that God exists. Therefore, the lists of reasons including Dansk's testimonial, LittleToe's defense of Dansk, and me pointing out the inherent fallacy of "absolute proof" of God.

    It has been my experience, and LIttleToe's experience, and Dansk's experience that the proof of God is ALWAYS truly personal. It makes sense (to me) that it is that way: That way those who truly don't need God don't have to deal with him. But I believe that he is always there when we do.

    Calvin talked a lot, in his arrogant and pedantic way, about the Elect. How GOD does the choosing about when, where, and how to reveal himself to EACH individual. It makes a lot of sense to me, as a believer, as to how people can go through their lives and NEVER believe. They just weren't chosen. I disagree firmly about the notion of a fiery hell, but I think that life on earth can be hellish enough if we don't cling to SOMETHING - what if hell was just Earth without ANY good people and no way to die or escape?

    And Jesus' parable of the shepherd who went to great lengths to rescue one sheep when he had 99 more tells me that God is going to do everything he can to save each and every individual. Which is a great relief to the believer: we are not responsible for saving anybody else, not even ourselves. God will tend to them in due time.

    More than that, even if they went to Hell, it is standard Christian doctrine that Christ has the keys to that place, whatever and wherever it is: he has gone there to rescue people before, and could very well do it again... maybe in the fullness of eternity Hell will be empty completely as people slowly are redeemed, one by one.

    But this is where I am coming from: I wanted to explain how the doctrine of the Elect could actually be a very humble and inclusive idea; while it sounds arrogant to say: God has shown himself to me and not to you, it makes better sense when I say that God has not shown himself to you YET. I also wanted to point out that the "truly personal" aspect of the proof of God is exactly what convinces believers so thoroughly. that is why I was curious if you even had an idea of what God's proof to you might be? You certainly don't have to tell me, and these proofs tend to sound silly even to fellow believers - but it seems that you already have an idea what I am talking about.

    I'm sure we will have this conversation again (maybe in French someday!). Eternity is a long time, sweetie...

    CZAR

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