by XQsThaiPoes 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
When does a high control group cross the line bettween being socially acceptable to being a "cult"?
Why do the Marines or DOD or CIA earn special pleading to exempt them from being a "cult" when they seem to have most of the signs of being a cult. Is it simply the notion that theoretically they should be protecting our interest. If a third party such as a militia decided to defend or propagate our interest does that free them from being a "cult" or a dangerous high control group.
You don't have any bites here yet XQ so I will assist.
This is a very good topic of discussion in my opinion; one which is more appropriatley discussed here on it's own thread.
I agree with you about some of your comments regarding "high control groups" in so far as a comparison to full cult status. Certainly there are some similarities and overlap in so far as controling activities and suppressing those who challenge authority (to name a few).
Definitely the military (as one example) have been accused of certain tactics and methodologies which have subsequently been challenged openly and publicly.
I suppose one could even extend the analysis to the prison system and the guard/warden-prisoner relationship. I am not a fan of aggressive or threatening tactics used to make one submissive although sometimes this is necessary (in the case of the criminal mind).
Some distinctions only between the military/prison system and a religious cult:
With a cult one would typically see these methods used to achieve a financial end or goal. As well, a cult would be unregulated in it's "high control tactics".
Now let's only deal with "regulatory aspect" of tactics which are found in "high control" and perhaps coercive but not illegal.
In the military or the prison system if the public became aware of these types of tactics there would be avenue for public outcry or at least public discussion with an end result being potential political interference and a change for the better.
We have seen this over the last five decades in several areas of the military and the prison system. Not only that, we have seen a vigorous response from civil liberty advocacy groups. That is not to say that change has come easy rather it has been 2 steps forward and one step back all the way. Nevertheless, their exists an outside regulatory framework with groups like this who in the end are very subject to "the court of public opinion". If an individual from within those groups is being treated unfairly they have an ability to get a lawyer and get some outside intervention should that intervention be warranted.
In a religious cult there exists no outside regulatory framework to monitor or effect change for the better. Only illegal tactics can be dealt with by outside regulatory agencies and only if the information is not deliberately suppressed by the cult. Should a member feel that certain "high control" tactics are unfair or oppressive but not necessarily illegal, then they have no ability to get outside advocacy to affect an intervention. Now add to this condition all the other conditions which exist in a cult and a cult member is truly helpless and totally at the mercy of the cult leadership.
XQ,
In another thread (which got deleted BTW for being too off-topic on that thread) you said something to this effect:
"Saying that JWs are a cult is way too western. Is Iran a giant cult?"
My reply: Iran is a giant totalitarian state. There are fundamentalist and liberal Iranians. They have spies and loyalists. But at the end of the day they are a pretty totalitarian ("theocratic") state. By western standards of course - but I personally prefer them to Oriental ones... :)
You can be a perfectly happy Iranian fundamentalist. Or a perfectly happy cynical, liberal Iranian who'd rather live in a western democracy. When are you going to have problems though? Only when you start voicing your opinions or when you plan on leaving the system. This is the best test for a totalitarian system - religious or political one.
The WTS is similar, although they exert pressure in other ways of course. But if you gave the WTS leaders a piece of land to start their own state, you'd end up creating a totalitarian theocracy. A Taliban state.
I know your opinion. You will say the WTS religion have been going mainstream for a while. If so, they still have a looong way to go. If they are just like Catholics, then why is there no DB in which hundreds of thousands of former Catholics participate to get mental healing, recovery, or simply to tell their stories of shunning and abuse (factor in the number of believers in both religions)? If they are just like Catholics, why are they severly punished for merely expressing disagreement with the official doctrine?
Of course JWs are mainstream in many respects. And there are cultish subgroups within the Catholic Church. But if you take into account the proportions and the intensity of fundamentalism, then Jwism comes across as a cult and the CC as a mainstream religion.
THe difference between the CIA and the WTS? Simple. Does the CIA use prolonged, coercive strategies of proselytising to recruit new members? Does it promise eternal life in Paradise in exchange for lifelong free labour for the org?
Once you're in the brainwashing may be similar. But it usually isn't. Most CIA agents are just as cynical as the organization which recruited them. Most JWs honestly believe in the WTS doctrines. TO such a degree that they're ready to sacrifice their children for the doctrine.
Pole
You mention a interesting new angle that nobody has every really brought up. The concept that you can have trial of some sort, and the theory that these trials are not simple rubber stamps or railroad stations. Now the Nazis had tonnes of trials and on paper everything their cult did was legal. The USSR has done sumilar trials where basically you are already sentanced but it is more entertaining to humiliate you in a mock trial.
I think that the problem is the fact that many people can't well how do I say it. They simply can't play chess with their life very well. If you deliberately structure a high control group (this is a multi trillion dollar business) there is nothing you can do to it period except destroy it, leave in exile, or live with it. The next phase is are those actions legal. For example it is illegal to destroy the marines, it is illegal to go AWOL in the marines, it is legal to live with the marines. So you have to choose do you want to break the law or not.
It seems the right to kindnap (jail) you or kill you is the main divider.
The original congreessional army (that fought the british) was nothing like this and if you got fed up you could just take your gun and go home as it was all volunteer (plus you had to bring your own gun and clothes anyway).
Lets go to JWs it is illegal to destroy them except via civil means, you can leave jws any time you want, at least here it is legal to be a JW (but it is not so everyplace).
It seems like the JWs are far weaker and have less control thant the military (no duh), but they dont have a concept of being broght to justice (note the military has never been brought to justice only individuals from it have). The weird thing is to bring a military to justic you have to basically conquer them. Nobody seems to ever think of bringing the whole military to court to be disbanded, but I have heard people talk about bringing the whole of JWs to court be disbanded.
What is this safety people feel when a stranger in green or kaki with a m-16 and the letters U.S."something or nother" on his BDU. Vs a guy with a cheap suit from JC penny or Bullocks and a cobbled together translation of the bible and the uncanny habbit of standing in front of dougnut shops lack? Thats a serious question.
Way too much gobbelygook.
Jehovahs Witnesses are somewhere between a high-control group and cult. Making the leap to and fro is easy. In some ways they are more cult like, in others they are more high-control type.
We've had conversations about this forever.
Why do you assume "cult" is negative?
A system of religious worship esp. expressed in ritual; devotion or homage to a person or thing. - Oxford Dictionary
What's the big deal?? Christains are a cult (CHRIST-ian). The US military is a cult (just watch a Marine react when you piss on a US flag).
I suggest the question should be: is the cult or high-control group dangerous?
Does the cult/group deceive its members? Are there dangerous requirements involved in membership (such as refusing medical treatment, etc)? How easy is it to divorce yourself from the group. (Remember XQ, you can leave the mob anytime.)
Pole
As far as those 100's of 1000s of shunned and abused catholics many were burried about 500 years ago give or take.
For the cia, I think it depends on what era of cia. During the hotest parts of the cold war the entire military was very religious so many things were done litteraly for God and country. I mean you have an atheist state and your job not only as a patriot but as a christian would be to stop it (not my veiw but you get the idea). The phrase "Kill a commie for Christ" did not manifest out of thin air. In todays CIA (like the director of the cia said) it is totally different.
Ez3 the problem is why is one dangerous cult good and another dangerous cult bad.
As far as medical treatment you loose the ability to refuse treatment when you enlist. A few army guys I know got sick from some anti bioweapon injection they could not refuse it since it was not their choice anymore.It was a minor annoyance and they recovered, but theoretically the military could prescribe any treatment with out reprisal.
The thing is all things created equal I would like to know how do people rationalize it is perfectly okay for on cult to exist and even kill people (accidentally or not). While a smaller more inert cult does not even come close to scale, funding, harm, or objective and yet it is something that should be disbanded.
This has nothing to do with being pacifist btw just trying to gauge how people seem rationalize unfairly, but I may be wrong.
How about this,
These people ....Tell you how to dress, have hair lenght requirements, tell you when to work and how they want that work done, they can punish you if you go against their rules, they can even cut you off from the others and send you away if they want. These people absolutely demand you not use drugs...or they will cut you off from others. If they see you even talking too much to others in the same group, they can punish you or cut you off and expel you.
These people I speak of are buisness owners and managers of these buisnesses.
Gumby
What is this safety people feel when a stranger in green or kaki with a m-16 and the letters U.S."something or nother" on his BDU. Vs a guy with a cheap suit from JC penny or Bullocks and a cobbled together translation of the bible and the uncanny habbit of standing in front of dougnut shops lack? Thats a serious question.
I'll tell you why this may be for many individuals. Many view the soldier as there to protect them and their interests. Many view the religious cult member as there to use lies or deception to seperate them from their money in order to make the cult more wealthy.
It's the same old story: Would you rather be shot from the front in clear sight or shot from behind when you're not paying attention.
