What is the truth?

by OldSoul 78 Replies latest jw friends

JamesThomas

The mind asks: "what is the truth?" It asks because it really does not know; for the word "truth" itself, is but an abstract.

Generally through much discussion and thought into other peoples conceptual beliefs and theories, we take away with us only that which supports and reinforces our own sense of what we don't know anything about in the first place.

The problem stems from the fact that we don't even know who or what we truly are. There is no ownership or knowledge of our true-identity. Thus, we wouldn't know "what is the truth" even if it bit us hard on the nipple.

j
frankiespeakin

OS,
I've only read a few post to this thread so I will start from here:
Pontius Pilate asked, and now I'm asking. I've been reading many topics in here, now I am wondering... what is truth?
First let may say this I don't know. And I don't think you know fully how hard a search that is. It seems to me,, that to find out what is "truth" require's a completely unprejudiced mind,, with no preconcieved ideas,, no hopes that it be this or that or the other,,(good or bad),,The reason I say this is because if we lean in any particular direction we are doomed to interpret the evidence in that direction,, of hope and preconcieved ideas. One must be impervious to any type of emotional pain for that too will end the search or misdirect understanding. Those searching may even declare it has found truth when they have not.
So my question to you is: Is your "wondering" just a casual wondering or is it deep inquirey?? If is causal then you will not find it.
I'm more inclind to think that you question is not a serious one,,because your mind is already made up even while asking the question.
I see where many of you have discovered that Jehovah's Witnesses don't have the truth. Okay. I'm both respectful and broadminded enough to allow for any other viewpoint, whether or not I agree.
Let me see if I got this right? Are you saying that your mind is open enough to see if your wrong if somebody brings it to your attention? Well I don't really sense that from reading your posts.
What should one of Jehovah's Witnesses replace their "falsely called knowledge" with? Where should they go away to, exactly?
For instance:
Is God a trinity?
Does man have an immortal soul?....Were we created? These are some of the basics I would need to know the answers to in order to choose to leave.
Well how about this,,instead of answering all of life question we just get right down to basics. You don't need a bunch of new ideas to replace old one if the are false. So let's just start by saying the Bible is just a book of myths,,that do not need to be replaced just understood that they are myths. There is no logical proof that the Bible is God's word. Archeology,,and lingistic studies of the Bible make it abundantly clear it is not a manuel from God to tell man how he wants us to live.
There are many others besides these. Basically, I don't see any great light in here yet. I see a lot of ego stroking, there's plenty of welcoming others into the fold (which only seems bonded by moderate to intense dislike for an organization).
Well you are looking for an absolute to replace Witness doctrine. There ain't any. The only place you get absolutes is where people are close minded and have fooled themselves into thinking they have the "truth".
I see much related to efforts of the WTBTS to silence those with differing opinions, so I'll be observing carefully how this is received.
So are you saying the WT puts forth effort to silence others who disagree with them?
Hopefully someone here can help me figure out where the bitching about a past you never even wanted stops and where the Great Enlightenment starts. I invite anyone to respond, but I am particularly interested in the response of jst2laws. Respectfully,
B_Ing Invisible
False assumptions,,to expose some ones lies does not require you that have to offer Great Enlightenment. A common WT falacy,, the need to replace beleifs,,to offer a better hope,,which is clearly not necesarry.
seven006

Dave: We need more specifics when someone comes here on a fishing expedition.
Why?
Well, I like to give accurate answers based on specifics as opposed to trying to guess what you are fishing for. You can put worms on the end of a hook all day long but, if your fishing for sharks, yor're wasting your time.
If you are looking for truth in something that is so controversial and is based on a person needing to have "faith" it is true as opposed to facts, one answer is as good or bad as the other. It's like asking what is your favorite color and do you think it should be mine? I find it hard to reason with people who base their entire existence on the belief that all is not well here on earth because a talking snake told a naked lady to eat a piece of fruit. Those kinds of myths along with the one where they fit 40 million species of animals on a boat the size of an oil tanker, feed them, clean their cages, and do it all within a years time frame is just too fairy tail for me. Do the math, math is one of your religions areas of expertise isn't it?
I thought I was pretty specific. I'm trying to find out what's all the hub-bub, Bub. That's it. Trying to find out what there is to leave for, after having read so many threads devoted to what to leave from.
Come on, do you really expect me to beleive that? Are you are really being truthful about that? Either you are pulling a JW justify a lie game on me or you are out and out fibbing. What I was asking is, what is your "purpose" for asking, is it you are truly looking to buy a religious replacement for the broken one you have now? Or, are you an active JW that has come here in an attempt to stir things up a bit and could honestly not give a rip what anybody says in answer to you because your mind is already set in hardened mud?
Are you and old elder friend of Steve's that has finally seen the truth about the publishing company and is now "truthfully" pondering the question "where do I go from here"? Or, Are you someone who asks questions only to bait people into a useless discussion or give your preprogramed and predigested "just love Jehovah" hub-bub? From the looks of how this thread is going, I would say the latter is more of the truth.
As your original question asked, what is the truth? Which scenario I just mentions is the truth about you posting here? Five bucks says you blow that question off just like a few of my others.
Ya see, without that knowledge about you, and your true purpose for asking, many here can be simply pissing into the wind and playing yet another useless game of I'm right, your wrong, with a JW who is trying to practice his rarely used ability to think for themselves. Now I'm into helping people learn how to think but, I'm not into playing games with people who have spent their whole life having others do it for them and then watch them fumble around trying to do it themselves when it is a total waste of time.
If you would have been completely honest and more specific on "why" you asked opposed to simply "what" you asked, things could move along a lot smoother. Say your first post said: Hi, Im an old friend of Just2Laws and I'm having real doubts about the JW publishing company like Steve did, so I came here for information and opinions. Or, I know Steve (just2laws) and I am an active, believing, JW who has my mind set in cement and I just want to waste all of your time so I can tell my wife and fellow elders how cool I am for rattling Steve's cage and making a bunch of apostates answer me cuz I fooled them into caring.
Are you seeing why I am asking for more information now? Unlike the JW's are allowed to do, asking questions that you thought up all by yourself instead of are given to you to ask, can give you more information which will enable you to find more truthful answers.
I'd be very surprised if Steve ever removed any sincere, thought provoking post from anyone.
Given that is the true nature of the person's intent for asking them, I would agree.
Censorship is anathema to him.
Sounds like you do know him. Can you give us an example of your statement?
Unless I don't know him anymore, I haven't said or done anything in here that would make him do anything more than bark a chuckle, sigh, sit back and cross his overly-large forearms over his overly-rotund belly, shake his big wooly head at the screen and take a quaff of something from an overly-large stein.
Now come on, Iv seen his arms in person, they are large, but overly large? That's a matter of opinion, not unlike any factual conclusions you can derive from answers given to your nonspecific, and true agenda hidden original question.
When he reads that, his face is gonna crack a grin a mile wide.
That I can beleive, that's one hell of a smile that boy has.
Of course, he would be very surprised at my 245 lbs., and my successful career that he often wondered whether...
Hey, Iv seen a lot of carpet cleaners make a damn good living. Good for you, not all of us need to have jobs that require more than a high school diploma to be a success at or a degree in human psychology to give life effecting advice. Just read selective and very controlled propaganda and you will set yourself free. It works for the top level of Amway distributors, who can argue with that? With that kind of mentality, I just cant figure out why they don't advise elders to do brain surgery.
Personally I think your reason for posting here is as truthful as JW's saying they are only interested in having people read their bible more when they get them to answer their doors. It may fool a few people, but we all now the truth don't we? You can rationalize half truths all you want, but the other half of a half truth is just a plain old lie. Just like you saying you want to know what all the hub-bub is all about on this board. Your bible students may buy into that twisted attempt at logic, it's worked for years with the meek, humble and totaly uninformed. I don't know why you ask for my truth, your consept of that word is totally different then mine.
Have a nice night, and thanks for playing.
Dave
Dawn

Hi OldSoul - and welcome.
I also had a lot of these same questions as you so I know where you're coming from. I found the book "Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ron Rhoades to be an extremely helpful research tool. It addresses a lot of these questions, explains the scriptures as used by the WTBS, and also includes other scriptures (some of which I had never read before or thought much of). I think it might help you out.
However - the biggest hurdle I had to overcome was to acknowledge that I may not be able to answer EVERYTHING. Being raised a JW I was used to being given an answer to every question - after all, they had an answer for everything because it was the "truth". Learning that some of these "answers/truths" were incorrect - I have to ask myself, which is better (1) not knowing the answer, or (2) thinking I have the answer when it's actually false.
I decided that option (1) was best for me. I've continued my search for many answers and have found that the journey itself, that journey to find the truth, has in fact offered me more than if someone simply gave me an answer. I have learned to think for myself, to consider possibilities I had never considered before, to listen to alternate theories and test these against facts before weighing in on my decision. Most of all, I've learned that this is not a quick fix - it is a lifetime journey, but well worth it.
As the old saying goes "Sometimes the journey is just as important as the destination". I wish you the best on your journey to find the Truth.
jst2laws

Hello OldSoul, I am coming in on this late and have not read the response of others. I will, nevertheless, give you my feelings, especially since you said " I am particularly interested in the response of jst2laws". You theme "What is truth" presents an interesting paradox. The question was asked by Pilate to Jesus, yet Jesus says nothing definitive on most of the issues you listed. Many (examples: is God a trinity, was Mary a virgin) were not even concepts of concern. Some others were addressed vaguely by His followers but not by Jesus. These are long time concerns of the Christian church and the Watchtower Society but not of much concern to Jesus.
Basically, I don't see any great light in here yet.
This is not the place for "light". Most of us are here as a result of investigating the WT history, doctrine and policy OR we were forced to face the harshness and hypocrisy that made it clear LOVE was missing in an organization that does not hide the fact that it is primarily a Publishing Corporation. If you are ready for information that will change your life with the truth about the "truth" I suggest you go to www.Amazon.com or http://www.commentarypress.com/ and order both of Ray Franz's books, James Penton's books and both of Carl Jonsson's books. Note above, I said IF you are ready. But be prepared for a paradigm shift.
Hopefully someone here can help me figure out where the bitching about a past you never even wanted stops and where the Great Enlightenment starts.
You will see that for yourself if you challenge the WT rules and get the above publications. We do not discuss the facts much here as this site is more a support system for survivors. Most of us have learned the facts and that results in all five stages of grief, grief because we lost a life that was a fantasy. That is the reason for what you call "bitching". Many are in the 'anger' stage. This site is more of a support group for those recovering from the loss of the fantasy, loss of their families, loss of their former life. But it is temporary. Thousands have come and gone. They now rarely or never post because they have a new life based on truth and reality. I hope that does not offend you. Please do not assume you have "the truth" until you have examined the whole story, the other side of the story. Anytime someone denies you this opportunity, red flags should go up. You sound very much like me when I came here. ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/3642/1.ashx ) As you know I have had some loss as a result of taking a stand. But I am now happier than ever in my life. I certainly am not "gnashing my teeth". I hope you investigate as I did if you are so inclined. If not, I hope you find happiness within the WT Society. Jst2laws
jst2laws

Narkissos, Very well said. Pole
Do those who get baptized as teenagers also use their "free will" to decide which religion they'll stay in for the rest of their lives? DO children believing in Santa use their free will when they take what their parents say at face value?

Free will is a highly disputable concept in many ways. Philosophically, psychologically and religiously.
Very good. The WT pushes for child baptism but then tries to hold them accountable for life for their beliefs at that time no more substantiated then belief in Santa Claus. The courts often uphold those commitments on the basis of their 'implied consent' to the WT rules for not taking a hike when they came of age. I really think those who split as baptized teenagers would have a real case in court for damages from shunning on the basis of their baptism being that of a minor and their disfellowshipping or DAing as a teen invalid because their contract with the Watchtower Society as a child was invalid. Jst2laws
jst2laws

Dave
Just a suggestion, this board has a PM (Private Message) function that may better suit the possible personal game you are trying to play with Steve. Putting this on the main board for all to see may not accomplish what you are trying to do, and waste a lot of peoples time, but then again, you may not care. Steve is a smart man and can take care of himself, he can even take this off the main board if he wishes and discuss this in private. Just a thought.
Big hug mysterious stranger, Dave
Relax Dave, he has the ability to cause a lot more havoc then messing around like this. I'm glad you closed your comments with a big hug. I think he deserves it. OldSoul, I told you:
I am coming in on this late and have not read the response of others. I will, nevertheless, give you my feelings
Well, I may have responded differently if I had read all of your comments. But if you know me as you say it makes little difference.
I'd be very surprised if Steve ever removed any sincere, thought provoking post from anyone. Censorship is anathema to him. Unless I don't know him anymore, I haven't said or done anything in here that would make him do anything more than bark a chuckle, sigh, sit back and cross his overly-large forearms over his overly-rotund belly, shake his big wooly head at the screen and take a quaff of something from an overly-large stein. When he reads that, his face is gonna crack a grin a mile wide.

Steve
OldSoul

As a JW, all direction supposedly from God comes through the F&DS.

I never suffered under that delusion. I am so sorry if you did, but it isn't true of me and never has been. I was seven when I asked my mom, "How do you know Jehoavh is real?" I have never found a question that shouldn't be asked. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, all my direction comes from God's inspired word, the Bible.
I appreciate your response. It is clear that either you or someone close to you felt controlled at some point, and I empathize with the emotions you express. If ever you didn't before, I am glad you are now choosing for yourself.
Respectfully,
B_Ing Invisible
OldSoul

Thus, we wouldn't know "what is the truth" even if it bit us hard on the nipple.

[Voice of Graham Chapman] Are you intimating that I don't know my wife is true?
[Voice of John Cleese] And now... for something completely different.
I disagree. I basically believe in banging two bricks together. That, my friend, that is truth.
jgnat

Banging two bricks together, is that like iron sharpening iron, or perhaps lively stones being built together and perhaps rubbing each other the wrong way?

What is the truth?

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