What is the truth?

by OldSoul 78 Replies latest jw friends

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  BrendaCloutier

  Old Soul. Thank you for your respect. Respect and Acceptance are often difficult for JW's to practice.

  I do have a question regarding your reply to "Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong?". Isn't that a paradoxical reply, since we can never foreknow the outcome of our choices? I think Asimov explored that very paradox of Kant's Examples and Maxims in the Robot series. When I read that, my first thought was "Okay, R. Daneel... and how exactly do we determine what will and will not harm?"

  Yes, "Do No Harm" is highly subjective. It has taken my commitment to working the steps of AA wholeheartedly to begin to understand what this means. Mostly to look at my past actions and determin my part in them, and how they may have harmed another, and THEN, "make amends to them except where to do so would harm THEM or OTHERS" (not myself!). Not an easy thing to do.

  If we murder, we are doing intentional harm, even if that murder is 2nd degree associated with drunk driving.

  If we have sex with another who is involved themselves with a 3rd party, we are party to doing harm to another, albeit indirectly.

  If we extort, or outright steal, we are doing harm.

  Of course, these are the obvious.

  Words are harmful. More than we realise at the time: I was told a story about a little boy, that everytime he said something hurtful he had to go pound a nail into the fence. One day his father told him to go take out all the nails he pounded in each time he apologised. Then his father showed him the holes, injuries, harm, that were left behind.

  As with the 10 commandments and 3 commandments, they are simple, but difficult to attain perfekt adhearance. Heartfelt intent, and amending (mending - patching those holes as best as possible) are the best we humans can do. It can also have amazing results.

  There is much in the spiritual (breathing is spiritual) that is paradoxical, i.e., you can't keep it unless you give it away. The answer on that is: If you don't give it away, you don't have room for more!

  I hope this has helped.

  Hugs and Peace

  Brenda
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  Narkissos

  Welcome OldSoul,

  I suggest that you give a second thought to Gill's ending line: "Maybe there is NO TRUTH except be true to yourself and the rest will follow."

  You may not agree with the negative statement about your objective questions, "maybe there is no truth," but have you noticed the subjective yet positive part in it? "Be true to yourself and the rest will follow". I strongly believe in that.

  What does that mean for a JW? It's quite simple: what you don't really believe, stop professing and teaching; what you don't feel like doing, stop doing. You'll be surprised how this will let you see much clearer what you do believe and feel like doing. Don't expect to find any ready substitute for "the Truth", "the organization", and so on, before you start doing this. Just walk by faith in what you really believe, day by day, step by step. You'll be free in no time.

  Take care,

  Didier
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  BrendaCloutier

  I do have a question regarding your reply to "Is there any such thing as moral and immoral, right and wrong?".

  PS To some groups and cultures, immorality differs. Pre-christian Polynesians practiced human sacrifice, infacide, incest amoung royalty, had a caste system, and slavery. Homosexuality was as fully acceptable as heterosexuality (and is in many native american cultures). A girl who bore a child was much more likely to marry than one who had not proven herself. Yet stepping on the shadow of an ali'i (royal) was punishable by immediate death - unless that person was able to make their way to a city of refuge. Today these cultural practices is (mostly) unacceptable to the world.

  My personal goal, and many out there, is to rise above what is acceptable; what we can get away with.

  Hugs

  Bren
• 

  JustTickledPink

  How about LIVE YOUR OWN TRUTH.

  When cops take a statement they say that eyewitness accounts are the most unreliable. Everyone can be in the same room and see different things, black shirt, not a checked shirt, tall no short, it was a van or was it a sports car? Was there shots fired or was it a knife? Eyewitness accounts have been proved to be unreliable.... so we all interpret things in our own way.

  What is the truth to you? You are the only one that has to believe it, no one else. Figure out what you believe in and stick to it.

  Personally I believe my thighs are gorgeous and cellulite free and I could give a flying flip what anyone else believes, because that is my own truth! LOL.
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  seven006

  So my definition (and Merriam-Webster's) of Great Enlightenment would be "having been furnished knowledge, or having been given spiritual insight to a remarkable degree, in remarkable magnitude, or in a way that is remarkably effective."

  So I take by your and Merriam's definition, you are not looking for truth as a whole, but truth in a specific context. You want a specific controlled truth that fits a specific agenda. To me, based on your controlled context, you are only looking for something that fits your preconceived definition of truth and qualified by mixing in the concept of spiritual enlightenment. Merriam defines the word "truth" in various ways depending on the specifics. One of those is: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality. Since you have narrowed your concept of truth down to one that does not deal specifically and totally with fact or reality, but rather metaphysical abstracts, any answer given will be simply another opinion and is only as true as you wish it to be.

  We need more specifics when someone comes here on a fishing expedition. If you want a version of truth based on the narrow and confined restrictions of the Christian take on it, please be more specific. Asking "what is the truth" gives the impression that you want more facts that are outside of just the Christian concept of it. Your thread title is then misleading. If you would have titled this thread "What is a narrow focused version of truth based only on the confines of a biblical context that I can feel comfortable with?" Specifics man, specifics.

  Many Christians who come here (especially JW's) only want the Christian take on truth and do not want to here about scientific proof based on universal physical laws, or archaeological and historical evidence that disproves mythical based belief and thus causes a domino effect on their entire belief system. I am only trying to figure out how much truth you really want how much you want to accept. I think you answered that.

  Any that you have to offer.

  Based on your specifics, I won't waste my time. I have a problem with half truths and controlled focus
  to fit specific agendas. That is not the truth, it's mental masturbation.

  Maybe Steve can clarify it more. You could say I knew him, yes. I would say I knew him far better than most people did. Maybe I still do know him.

  That was ambiguous. The plot thickens. I answered your question, would you please answer my last one. What do you hope to accomplish here?

  Just a suggestion, this board has a PM (Private Message) function that may better suit the possible personal game you are trying to play with Steve. Putting this on the main board for all to see may not accomplish what you are trying to do, and waste a lot of peoples time, but then again, you may not care. Steve is a smart man and can take care of himself, he can even take this off the main board if he wishes and discuss this in private. Just a thought.

  Big hug mysterious stranger,

  Dave
• 

  OldSoul

  Narkissos,
  

  Thanks for the reply. I couldn't imagine worshipping Jehovah any other way. According to the things I have been taught and the things I have researched out for myself, Jehovah has only asked for unwilling service a few times: from Jonah, from a fellow who intended to curse the Israelites, etc. But the examples are few and far between.

  In major, he not only asks for, but will only accept willing service. Otherwise, any offering is a lame one. Maybe that's why I am having a hard time understanding you folks in here. I never served for men, and I have always understood that I have both the ability and the responsibility to choose my course.

  Like Paul, "I am not conscious of anything against myself, but by this I am not proved righteous." Jehovah is my judge. As long as I am pleasing him, it is a small thing whether I am questioned by human tribunals or by you well-meaning folks. I think that might be the dividing line between those who stay and those who leave... you cared what other humans thought of you to the point that you stopped being true to yourself.

  At some point, or in some way you stopped being "true to yourself" and you blame someone else or some organization for that choice. I appreciate the replies. This helped me validate my understanding of what prompts a person to snipe after (or while) leaving, and what prompts a person to try and "save" as many others as possible from this dread organization.

  You think many/most of Jehovah's Witnesses are as foolish and shortsighted as you were before you realized the wondrous beauty of our gift of free will. You may be right... I know I have a harder time getting people to understand how precious that gift is than any other Jehovah has given us. My Bible Students progress quickly and I get puzzled stares when asked how I keep getting such progressive students. I simply say, "They choose Jehovah."

  Most want the "magic formula" and when I give it to them they don't understand what I said. I'm glad Jehovah overlooks such ignorance.

  Respectfully,
  B_Ing Invisible
• 

  formerout

  OldSoul,

  You will find that Brenda's comments are some of the wisest here, IMO.

  At the risk of sounding simplistic, (next to her's ), I will make a couple of more comments myself.

  Regarding Hitler being a part of God as well (and he was obviously a badass), my opinion is that all people are capable of showing love. It just seems that some people love TO HATE. It fulfills some sort of need in their life and it is not exactly healthy but when they get support from their bad behaviour (like Hitler did by most of his country), it is not necessarily easy for them to stop their negative behaviour.

  This brings me to the point about the WTBTS. I still love all the individuals in the org., although, granted I have greater respect for some than others. It is the system that has been created that I strongly dislike. The WTBTS accepts people into their fold with virtually no conditions. Once in, they defend those individuals to the tenth degree, simply because the ones they are defending them against are "Satan's followers". This allows many dysfunctional people to BELIEVE that they are right when in fact a lot should get psychological help.

  The major difference that I have noticed since I have not been a Witness is that I would gladly take positive advice from anybody, including JW's. I also know enough when the advice is most likely negative and consequently ignore it.

  While I was a JW I took only advice from them, positive or negative, and took it to heart. My ability to reason for myself was very limited.

  You a very well-spoken person and from the impression I get, likely intelligent both intellectually and socially. My opinion is that you are not necessarily a negative influence on society in general even though you are a JW. Many others that are JW's though, are a very negative influence to the people around them. I have had some major experiences with this both in my childhood and in recent interaction with my ex-wife's JW family. I can handle it and learn from it, but I also recognize that for me to behave the same way as them, it would not be good for anybody, including myself.

  I hope that might shed a little more light on what I meant about avoiding absolutes and that we are all a "part" of God, in a sense.

  Brad
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  Gill

  OldSoul, I am not talking about living without morality or right or wrong. I am talking about not seeing the roses because you're too busy looking at the soil.

  Did I mention, do anything you want and it doesn't matter?

  People, not naming any religious group in particular, are so would up looking for some obscure truth and warning of THE END! and surviviing that their humanity goes out of the window.

  They forget to put out a hand of love or care simply for the sake of putting out a hand of love or care. They seek a future reward and can't feel the reward of simply doing good.

  That is the 'truth'. Maybe loving and caring actions are more important.

  If you believe that you only exist to WARN others and act as God's mouthpiece then perhaps, when you begin to feel that you are above IT ALL is when you are no longer worthy of the job.

  That's why I say we may never know ' the truth'.

  Perhaps there's something More important than some ethereal TRUTH.
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  OldSoul

  Dave,

  Dave: We need more specifics when someone comes here on a fishing expedition.

  Why?

  Dave: Asking "what is the truth" gives the impression that you want more facts that are outside of just the Christian concept of it.

  I gave some examples of questions that I am specifically interested in, but my interest is not in any way limited to those. I apologize if my topic header was misleading. I did not intend to. I am looking for your "truth."

  Dave: What do you hope to accomplish here?

  I thought I was pretty specific. I'm trying to find out what's all the hub-bub, Bub. That's it. Trying to find out what there is to leave <i>for</i>, after having read so many threads devoted to what to leave <i>from</i>.

  Dave: Steve is a smart man and can take care of himself, he can even take this off the main board if he wishes

  I'd be very surprised if Steve ever removed any sincere, thought provoking post from anyone. Censorship is anathema to him. Unless I don't know him anymore, I haven't said or done anything in here that would make him do anything more than bark a chuckle, sigh, sit back and cross his overly-large forearms over his overly-rotund belly, shake his big wooly head at the screen and take a quaff of something from an overly-large stein. When he reads that, his face is gonna crack a grin a mile wide.

  Of course, he would be very surprised at my 245 lbs., and my successful career that he often wondered whether...
• 

  Pole

  glad you've found my thread so inspiring ;-)