i need some proof for evolution

by crizlee 46 Replies latest jw friends

  • StinkyPantz
    StinkyPantz
    You have to be really creful when using words like "proof" and "theory" when applied to science. These words have very specific meanings. In science, the word "proof" is properly limited to mathematics. i.e. a "proof" is used to make a statement of mathematical certainty. It applies only to abstract mathematics and not to any application in the "real world".

    I like that you pointed this out. As a person studying to be a Forensic Scientist, I often see people using the terms improperly and it bugs me. It's too bad though, that this will most likely be ignored.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    I don't think you can "prove" evolution, just like you can't "prove" creation. If there was indisputable evidence for evolution, no one would continue to believe in creation and visa versa.

    Oh, but there *is* indisputable evidence for evolution! The problem is it counters some people's religious beliefs. When that conflict occurs, many will choose their religious beliefs instead of science.

    This has happened before with Galileo. He came up with the radical concept that the earth was not the center of the universe and it revolved around the sun. He was ordered by the church to recant and lived the rest of his life under house arrest.

    Fortunately, many religious people are able to mesh the two..believing in both God and evolution. When that happens, evolution is no longer a threat to their faith and they no longer fight it.

    BTW, definitely see that talkorigins.org site for evidence supporting evolution. It is plentiful. It most likely won't convince someone who feels it contradicts their religious beliefs, though.

  • TD
    TD

    In regard to the original question:

    As Mike has explained, you won't find proof in the true sense of the word; all you will find is evidence.

    One line of evidence that is compelling to me is the fact that virtually every species is surrounded by a spectrum of other species that are related to it in varying degrees.

    At the "near" end of the spectrum, you will find sub-species so closely related that minor changes in size, color, features and/or behavior are the only real differences between them. Examples would include the Asian and African Lion, and the Summatran and Bengal Tigers.

    As we start to move away from a given species' most closest kin, we find other, more distinct species that often can still actively interbreed and produce fertile offspring. (Sometimes even in the wild) Lions and Tigers, for example can be bred to produce "Ligers" or "Tygons." (Lion/Tiger and Tiger/Lion respectively) Other examples would include Leopard/Lion, Lynx/Bobcat, Puma/Leopard, Polar Bear/Brown Bear, Polar Bear/Kodiak Bear, Forest/Savannah African Elephants, Blue/Black Wildebeast, Eland/Kudu, Masai/Rothschild's Giraffe, Harp/Hooded Seal --the list goes on and on.

    Every one of these pairings represent two species whose ancestery crosses or actually merges at some point in the past. It is intuitively apparent then that new species do diverge from common stock. This in and of itself would not be compelling if there was a clear "line" of gametic isolation conforming to the notion of Genesis "kinds" If that existed, we could write this all off as simply variartion within a "Kind" (e.g. The Lion and Tiger are both members of the "Cat Family" and hence the same basic "Kind.")

    However this doesn't seem to be the case. Some species which don't appear that closely related actually are. Camels and Llamas both have 74 chromosomes. A Llama/Camel cross (By artificial insemination) produces the "Cama" --a creature with the short ears and long tail of the camel, no hump and the Llama's cloven hoves.

    Other species obviously are related, but not nearly as close as we might think. Donkeys have 62 chromosomes, but horses have 64. Crossing a Donkey stallion with a Horse mare will give you either a Mule or a Molly. Because of this mismatch in karyotype, Mules are always sterile and Mollies almost always are. Similarly, crossing a Horse Stallion with a Donkey mare will sometimes produce the smaller boned Hinny, but often, it produces nothing at all. Mules, Mollies and Hinnies have 63 chromosomes.

    Some species are even more distantly related. Sheep have 54 chromosomes and Goats have 60. Crosses between sheep and goats will develop to the point of birth, but they are usually stillborn, although there have been documented exceptions. The resultant creature, which has long, goat-like legs and a heavy sheep-like body has 57 chromosomes

    Although a cross between the Bison and Domestic Cattle will produce healthy, fertile offspring, crossing the Water Buffalo with Domestic Cattle will produce a living Zygote, (Which means the Sperm and Egg did manage to successfully combine) but the Zygote dies when it splits beyond eight cells.

    Are sheep, cattle and goats one kind or three kinds? To me, neither answer is really attractive from the standpoint of creationism. If the answer is "One kind", why do they each have distinctly different genetic karyotypes respectively? If the answer is "Three kinds", then why can some combinations still interbreed?

    This to me is strong evidence that the idea of "species purity" is a human invention. Nature defies these attempts to compartmentalize creatures into static species. Life is a constantly changing genetic continuum rather than a rigid set of self-contained "Kinds."

  • maybesbabies
    maybesbabies

    One simple fact that hit home with me was this:

    look at the life cycles of clams and oysters.

    Most religions that believe the world is only about 6,000 years old also believe that the deposits of clam and oyster shells in the rock layers of mountains came about during the 40 days and 40 nights of the flood. It would be impossible for that many clams and oysters to reproduce and leave behind their fossilized shells in that short amount of time. A plausible theory would then be that the mountains were once a part of the seabed, with plenty of time to accumulate a great number of corpses. It also would be plausible, with our knowledge of tectonic plates, that the seabed then rose, in some great upheaval, or over time, to form the mountains we now see. So which makes more sense, the collection of fossils over time, or that some how there was a rapid and heretofore unknown explosion and acceleration in the life and breeding cycle of clams and oysters?

  • Doubtfully Yours
    Doubtfully Yours

    Evolution, just like Creation, has many holes in it.

    And remember... Some things exist regardless of whether you believe them or not.

    How's that for confusing? Sorry, I've had a bit too much caffeine today.

    DY

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    I will give my layman's reasons for beleiveing we got here thru evolution.

    Everywhere you go there is evidence for it. Take a seed for example it evolves to a full grown plant gradually,, too slow to see with our eyes but fast enought to get it on film.

    We evolved from the joining of a sperm and egg cell. Every life form is evolveing. We see the evidence with our own eyes all the time.

    Fussion in side the stars is evolution: Hydrogen evolves to Helium,,then to Oxygen and Carbon all the way up the chart to Iron inside the stars,, and by means of a super nova elemets evolve to make the heavier elements. It's all evolution every where you go. Blame it on time and space.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    TD's post is IMHO brilliant. It's an excellent starting point with a JW because it addresses their particular concept of living things. I loved how he used living examples, with their karyotes to demonstrate the continuum of life, and that organisms aren't as discrete or distinct from one another as a JW might think. You've shown evidence for what one would expect with evolution (the clades of organisms) and you've countered their faulty concept of "kind." From there, it should be easier for them to envision the process beyond the present, into the past, and into the future.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32

    Agreed Midget...it was an awesome post!

  • TD
    TD

    Thank you!

    I actually got interested in this subject as an argument for creation and only realized after the fact that it doesn't really support it very well at all.

    Another way to look at the evidence is to examine what related species cannot reproduce together.

    The Bible introduces the concept of "Kinds" very much in the context of reproduction. Genesis 1:21-25 mentions kinds that were to be fruitful and multiply and Genesis 6:19-20 mentions kinds that ostensibly were to repopulate the Earth after the flood.

    This is all well and good when you're dealing with species that can reproduce. It's not hard for example, to imagine the domestic dog and his wild "cousins" as being members of the same Biblical "Kind." After all, they're all fertile together, so they can, in a sense reproduce "according to their kind"

    In addition to our beloved Canis familiaris, these would include:

    Canis aureus Golden jackal Old World (78 chromosomes)
    Canis adustus Side-striped jackal SubSahara Africa (78 chromosomes)
    Canis mesomelas Black-backed jackal SubSahara Africa (78 chromosomes)
    Canis simensis Simien jackal Ethiopia (78 chromosomes)
    Canis lupus Gray wolf Holarctic (78 chromosomes)
    Canis latrans Coyote North America (78 chromosomes)
    Canis rufus Red wolf Southern U.S. (78 chromosomes)
    Canis alpinus Dhole Asia (78 chromosomes)

    Problem is, there are a whole boat-load of divergent members of the Canidae family

    For example:

    This is the Raccoon Dog (Nycteruetes procyonoides -- 42 chromosomes) of Asia and although it is a true canid, it is only a distant relative of the domestic Dog.

    Many other examples exist:

    Speothos venaticus Bushdog Ne S. America (74 chromosomes)
    Lycalopex vetulus Hoary fox Ne S. America (74 chromosomes)
    Cerdocyon thous Crab-eating fox Ne S. America (74 chromosomes)
    Chrysocyon brachyurus Manes wolf Ne S. America (76 chromosomes)
    Vulpes velox Kit fox Western U.S. (50 chromosomes)
    Vulpes vulpes Red fox Old and New world (36 chromosomes)
    Alopex lagopus Arctic fox Holarctic (50 chromosomes)
    Fennecus zerda Fennec fox Sahara (64 chromosomes)
    Otocyon megalotis Bat-eared fox Subsaharan Africa (72 chromosomes)
    Uocyon cinereoargenteus Gray fox North America (66 chromosomes)

    These are all members of the family Canidae but most of them cannot reproduce with the first group above.

    As you can see from the names, science appropriately catagorizes them into generas other than canis. This recognizes both their kinship to the Wolf, Jackal, Coyote and domestic Dog and their differences, which to me, seems the most honest way to look at things.

    However strict creationists, must wrestle with the question of whether these are distinctly different "Kinds" or not. Again, neither a "Yes" or a "No" answer really seems to me to accurately describe the reality of the situation, because the truth lies between these two extremes.

  • Happy Guy :)
    Happy Guy :)

    On a related topic of sorts, I recall years ago (mid 1980s) discussing with some JWs about timeline and creation vs. biblical forcasts of Armaggedon and the JWs were taking the position that the world was a little over 6000 years old. I asked them how they accounted for the dinosaurs which roamed the planet millions of years ago. Their explanation was "How do we know that the aren't only 6000 years old?" I responded by explaining to them about carbon dating. Of course they had to get the answer because they knew that an answer existed somewhere, it's just that they did not know it (you know the old line).

    Well they did eventually get back to me. Their explanation as handed down by the wise elders was that "Dinosaurs never actually existed and it was Satan who put the bones in the ground to deceive the world".

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