I would like to know what the WTS teaches about, "The Angel of God." Who or what do the say this angel is?
Who is, "The Angel of God" according to the WTS
by Triple A 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Satanus
A special rep angel. Sometimes, it is jesus, as in the angel who is supposed to have led the jews in the wilderness. Of course, the doctrine runs into problems when there are three of them as in those who visited abraham. He called all three jehovah, god's personal name. I would say that that incident destroys wt postulating on this subject.
S
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Satanus
Here is an article from a wt:
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w88 5/15 pp. 21-23 Has Anyone Seen God? ***Has
Anyone Seen God?THE renowned patriarch Abraham, who lived more than 1,900 years before the birth of Jesus Christ, was so warmly viewed by our Creator that he was called "God?s friend." (James 2:23, Byington) If anyone would be given the privilege of seeing God, surely Abraham would be that person. Well, on a certain occasion, three visitors came to him with a divine message. Abraham addressed one of them as Jehovah. Does this mean that Abraham actually saw God?
This account is found at Genesis 18:1-3. There we read: "Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamre, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth. Then he said: ?Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant.?"
Later, when Abraham and his three visitors were viewing Sodom from an elevated location, two left to visit the city. Verse 22 then says: "But as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham." It would appear from this that God was present with Abraham in a materialized fleshly body. This is what some persons contend who believe that God and Jesus Christ are one and the same person.
Regarding Genesis 18:3, Bible scholar Melancthon W. Jacobus wrote: "Here God appears for the first time on record as man among men, to show the reality of His Being, and of His affinity with men, and by this typical act to assure the patriarch of the Divine communion and fellowship." Those having this point of view could conclude that Abraham actually saw Jehovah with his physical eyes and that persons who saw Jesus Christ also saw God. But is this conclusion in harmony with the Bible?
What
Jesus SaidInstead of announcing that he was God in the flesh, Jesus Christ said: "I am God?s Son." (John 10:36) As Jehovah God?s perfect Representative, Jesus also said: "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 5:30) When Jesus was on the torture stake, he prayed to the great Creator in the heavens, addressing him as "My God, my God." (Matthew 27:46) After his resurrection, Jesus told Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." (John 20:1, 17) Since Jesus Christ was not God incarnate, no one who saw Jesus could say that he had thus seen God.
John, the apostle whom Jesus especially loved, confirmed the fact that the apostles were not seeing God when they looked at Jesus. Under inspiration John said: "No man has seen God at any time." (John 1:18) Whom, then, did Abraham see? The experience of Moses helps us to find the answer.
How
Moses Saw GodMoses once expressed the desire to see God. At Exodus 33:18-20, we read: "?Cause me [Moses] to see, please, your glory.? But he [God] said: ?I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.? And he added: ?You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.?"
What God permitted Moses to see was His passing glory. Verses 21-23 state: "And Jehovah said further: ?Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.?"
In harmony with what Jehovah told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses saw no materialization or material form of God. All that Moses saw was the afterglow of the divine presence passing by. Even then he had to be divinely protected. Obviously, it was not God himself that Moses saw.
When Moses spoke to God "face to face," as stated at Exodus 33:11, he was not in visual contact with Jehovah. This expression indicates the manner in which Moses communicated with God, not what he saw. Speaking with God "face to face" indicates a two-way conversation. Similarly, an individual can carry on a two-way conversation by telephone without seeing the other person.
When Moses talked with God and received instructions from him, the communication was not through visions, as was often the case with other prophets. This is noted at Numbers 12:6-8, where we read: "He went on to say: ?Hear my words, please. If there came to be a prophet of yours for Jehovah, it would be in a vision I would make myself known to him. In a dream I would speak to him. Not so my servant Moses! He is being entrusted with all my house. Mouth to mouth I speak to him, thus showing him, and not by riddles; and the appearance of Jehovah is what he beholds.?" In what sense did Moses behold "the appearance of Jehovah"?
Moses beheld "the appearance of Jehovah" when he, Aaron, and certain other men were on Mount Sinai. At Exodus 24:10, it is written: "They got to see the God of Israel. And under his feet there was what seemed like a work of sapphire flagstones and like the very heavens for purity." But how did Moses and the other men get to "see the God of Israel," since God had told him, "No man may see me and yet live"? Verse 11 explains, for it says: "He did not put out his hand against the distinguished men of the sons of Israel, but they got a vision of the true God and ate and drank." So the appearance of God that Moses and the others saw was by means of a vision.
Angelic
RepresentativesIt has not been necessary for the great Creator of the universe to come down from his lofty place in the heavens in order to deliver messages to certain humans. Aside from the three recorded instances when God?s own voice was heard while his Son was on the earth, Jehovah has always used angels to transmit His messages. (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; John 12:28) Even the Law that God gave to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai was transmitted by angels, although Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself. Regarding this, the apostle Paul wrote: "Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator."?Galatians 3:19.
That Moses actually spoke with an angel who was personally representing God is also indicated at Acts 7:38, which states: "This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers." That angel was the personal spokesman for Jehovah God, the Creator, and so he spoke to Moses as if God himself were speaking.
The angel who delivered God?s message to Moses at the burning thornbush was also a spokesman. He is identified as Jehovah?s angel at Exodus 3:2, where we are told: "Jehovah?s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush." Verse 4 says: "When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush." In verse 6, this angelic spokesman for God said: "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." So when speaking with this personal representative of God, Moses spoke as if he were speaking to Jehovah himself.?Exodus 4:10.
In the 6th chapter of Judges, we find another example of a man speaking to God through an angelic representative. Verse 11 identifies the message bearer as "Jehovah?s angel." There we read: "Later Jehovah?s angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian." This messenger, "Jehovah?s angel," is thereafter represented as if he were Jehovah God himself. In verses 14 and 15, we read: "Upon that Jehovah faced [Gideon] and said: ?Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian?s palm. Do I not send you?? In turn he said to him: ?Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel??" So the materialized angel seen by Gideon and with whom he spoke is represented in the Biblical account as if he were God himself. In verse 22, Gideon says: "I have seen Jehovah?s angel face to face!" The angel spoke precisely what God told him to speak. Therefore, Gideon spoke with God through this angelic spokesman.
Consider, too, the case of Manoah and his wife, the parents of Samson. This account also speaks of the angelic messenger as "Jehovah?s angel" and "the angel of the true God." (Judges 13:2-18) In verse 22, Manoah says to his wife: "We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen." Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
"No Man Has Seen God"Now it is possible to understand why Abraham addressed the materialized angelic spokesman of God as if he were talking to Jehovah God himself. Since this angel spoke precisely what God wanted to have said to Abraham and was there personally representing Him, the Biblical record could say that "Jehovah appeared to him."?Genesis 18:1.
Remember that an angelic spokesman for God could transmit His messages just as precisely as a telephone or a radio can transmit our words to another person. Hence, it can be understood how Abraham, Moses, Manoah, and others could speak with a materialized angel as if they were talking to God. While such individuals were able to see these angels and the glory of Jehovah reflected by them, they were not able to see God. Therefore, this in no way contradicts the apostle John?s statement: "No man has seen God at any time." (John 1:18) What these men saw were angelic representatives and not God himself.
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Satanus
*** w97 1/15 p. 11 Serving as Messengers of Godly Peace ***
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Jesus Christ is Jehovah?s greatest messenger of peace. He is the Word of God, Jehovah?s own personal Spokesman.
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it-2 p. 53 Jesus Christ ***Doubtless on many occasions during his prehuman existence as the Word, Jesus acted as Jehovah?s Spokesman to persons on earth. While certain texts refer to Jehovah as though directly speaking to humans, other texts make clear that he did so through an angelic representative. (Compare Ex 3:2-4 with Ac 7:30, 35; also Ge 16:7-11, 13; 22:1, 11, 12, 15-18.) Reasonably, in the majority of such cases God spoke through the Word. He likely did so in Eden, for on two of the three occasions where mention is made of God?s speaking there, the record specifically shows someone was with Him, undoubtedly his Son. (Ge 1:26-30; 2:16, 17; 3:8-19, 22) The angel who guided Israel through the wilderness and whose voice the Israelites were strictly to obey because ?Jehovah?s name was within him,? may therefore have been God?s Son, the Word.?Ex 23:20-23; compare Jos 5:13-15
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seeitallclearlynow
Satanus - so, you have no interest in the subject then?
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Satanus
No, i don't believe this stuff. It's stupid. Even if i did, the wt idea that god himself would never appear to someone as one angel, or three angels, or a thousand angels, or as a donkey or whatever would be stupid, imo. 'Course, that would mean that people had seen god, or part of it. The wt god seems to be stuck somewhere, unable to move and do things for itself. Maybe his butt is stuck in a crapper.
Btw, i did the favor of supplying the info cuz noone else did. Somebody has to do the dirty work.
S, off to wash the wt grime off his hands
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seeitallclearlynow
Well S you did a good job of providing the info requested.
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Triple A
It surprises me that they relate the appearance to The Angel of God to being Jesus. That is very main stream Christian, but they do take away the diety aspect of these appearances.
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Narkissos
One of the first references to Jesus as "the Angel of the Lord" is from Justin Martyr in his First apology (ca. 156 AD).
CHAPTER LXIII -- HOW GOD APPEARED TO MOSES.
And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand." And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him." Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, "He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me." From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, "And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people." And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, "Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me." And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him." The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote.
In the Dialogue with Trypho the same idea is combined with the Son being God (although in a subordinate manner):
CHAPTER LVI -- GOD WHO APPEARED TO MOSES IS DISTINGUISHED FROM GOD THE FATHER.
"Moses, then, the blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God, sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by Another who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal intercourse with none, whom we believe to be Maker and Father of all things; for he speaks thus: 'God appeared to him under the oak in Mature, as he sat at his tent-door at noontide. And lifting up his eyes, he saw, and behold, three men stood before him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the door of his tent; and he bowed himself toward the ground, and said;' "(and so on;) " 'Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord: and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward the adjacent country, and beheld, and, lo, a flame went up from the earth, like the smoke of a furnace.'" And when I had made an end of quoting these words, I asked them if they had understood them.
And they said they had understood them, but that the passages adduced brought forward no proof that there is any other God or Lord, or that the Holy Spirit says so, besides the Maker of all things.
Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures,[of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things--above whom there is no other God--wishes to announce to them." And quoting once more the previous passage, I asked Trypho, "Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mature, as the Scripture asserts?"
He said, "Assuredly."
"Was He one of those three," I said, "whom Abraham saw, and whom the Holy Spirit of prophecy describes as men?"
He said, "No; but God appeared to him, before the vision of the three. Then those three whom the Scripture calls men, were angels; two of them sent to destroy Sodom, and one to announce the joyful tidings to Sarah, that she would bear a son; for which cause he was sent, and having accomplished his errand, went away."
"How then," said I, "does the one of the three, who was in the tent, and who said, 'I shall return to thee hereafter, and Sarah shall have a son,' appear to have returned when Sarah had begotten a son, and to be there declared, by the prophetic word, God? But that you may clearly discern what I say, listen to the words expressly employed by Moses; they are these: 'And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian bond-woman, whom she bore to Abraham, sporting with Isaac her son, and said to Abraham, Cast out this bond-woman and her son; for the son of this bond-woman shall not share the inheritance of my son Isaac. And the matter seemed very grievous in Abraham's sight, because of his son. But God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the son, and because of the bond-woman. In all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken to her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.' Have you perceived, then, that He who said under the oak that He would return, since He knew it would be necessary to advise Abraham to do what Sarah wished him, came back as it is written; and is God, as the words declare, when they so speak: 'God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the son, and because of the bond-woman?' " I inquired. And Trypho said, "Certainly; but you have not proved from this that there is another God besides Him who appeared to Abraham, and who also appeared to the other patriarchs and prophets. You have proved, however, that we were wrong in believing that the three who were in the tent with Abraham were all angels."
I replied again, "If I could not have proved to you from the Scriptures that one of those three is God, and is called Angel, because, as I already said, He brings messages to those to whom God the Maker of all things wishes[messages to be brought], then in regard to Him who appeared to Abraham on earth in human form in like manner as the two angels who came with Him, and who was God even before the creation of the world, it were reasonable for you to entertain the same belief as is entertained by the whole of your nation."
"Assuredly," he said, "for up to this moment this has been our belief."
Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,--numerically, I mean, not[distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world--above whom there is no other God--has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with."
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