"Brainwashing " thread......Part 2

by logansrun 33 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Brummie

  when one poster said she "couldn't help" the way she was thinking when she was a JW

  Well being an exjw I guess I understand what she means, dont you? i.e she couldnt help the way she was thinking because she didnt realise there was an alternative way to think, most JWs do not realise this. I doubt that she meant she had been aggressively tied to a chair in a dungeon and forced to listen to Celine Dion records for 48 hours.

  Sometimes we can just understand these exjw statements without pondering the cognitive/emotive stimuli.

  ;)

  If you need a hand understanding, just give me a shout ;)

  Brummie
• 

  logansrun

  cyber-sister,

  You seem to have missed some crucial elements of my post. You also wrote:

  Hilter used a form of this with his propaganda, which led people to do horrendous things that they would not have normally done, which the country still apologizes for this day.

  The fact of the matter is that not all of Hitler's propaganda worked as there was plenty of internal German resistance to the Nazis and many Germans, although supportive of Hitler in public, were not persuaded in private and simply were terrified of his regime. Even for those that were persuaded by his propaganda to do horrendous things, did they have no control of themselves in doing so? What did the Nuremburg trials conclude?

  As for your psychologist all I can say is that there is debate as to the semantic definition of "brainwashing" but I'm sure he would not say your own volition played no part in why you were a JW at one time. If he thinks otherwise he simply is mistaken. (Yes, PhD's have been known to be mistaken too)

  B.
• 

  logansrun

  I've got to run too Winston, but I will touch on this...

  but then is taught to circumvent stage 'B' and go directly from 'A' to 'C'.

  No, it never works that way. There's always a point "B." Point "B" might have been shaped by the Dubs, but again, we let ourselves be shaped to some extent, and even add to it.

  By the way, I'm not saying any of us were stupid or bad people for being an active part in all this. I don't view this matter as good or bad. It just *is*.

  B.
• 

  AlanF

  Bradley, your basic thesis is disproved by the events surrounding Charles Manson and his followers. Manson killed no one, yet he'll be in prison the rest of his life. If you can understand why, and understand why his followers killed people, you can understand why you're wrong.

  AlanF
• 

  frenchbabyface

  I don't understand why to dismisse the brainwashing you opose it to the faculty to get out of it ... BUT : Not the same reasons, not the same process ...

  • It's like saying that if someone have been in trance,
    because he have been able to get out of it, he haven't been in trance ...
    (sort of)
• 

  Brummie

  It's like saying that if someone have been in trance,
  because he have been able to get out of it, he haven't been in trance ...

  Well said FBF along with AlanF I think you've put this one to bed.

  x x x

  Brummie
• 

  obiwan

  I didn't agree with the first one...not gonna bother with the second one.
• 

  cyber-sista

  Logan

  I think we as JWs were all well trained in arguing over words and winning debates...I think this thread proves that we are still doing it to one degree another. Maybe we are still under the trance
• 

  Midget-Sasquatch

  Logan,

  You agree that the WTBTS uses manipulation, coercion, and several other effective thought reform techniques on its members. You've even practically said that the indoctrination of children growing up as JWs is as close an example to the model "brainwashing" as can be found.

  I've agreed with your first post in so far as that in the initial stages, for an adult who's never grown up a JW, they willingly participate in their own thought reforming. I think that while you're looking at the beginning of the process, others are from personal experience focussed on the later stages. I think you should also consider though that the indoctrination process itself, morphs over time to a point where the person is conditioned to be less critical and so in effect highly receptive to external direction.

  Yes there is still involvement of the person themselves, but very minimal in the later stages, and its also been highly manipulated. You yourself alluded to the possibility of conditioning your postulated "B" filter. Imagine us poor souls that grew up and actually had alot of our hard-wiring and patterns subjected to the indoctrination. The slyness of the thought reform process is that the person is in the end tricked into administering alot of the conditioning on themselves and they believe they are completely self-directed.

  IMHO, those of us who weren't for whatever reason so "taken" by the Borg, just didn't have the indoctrination process reach its later stages.
• 

  zen nudist

  the A- B- C model from Ellis is missing something...allow me to elaborate

  we live in a 5 dimensional mental universe. there are 3 of space one of time and one of alternate reality possibilities. these alternates have all four dimensions...

  brainwashing may be the wrong term, but JWs and others invent a structured alternate reality... a fantasy ideal world. they reinforce it with every teaching every doctrine every reference until it becomes unconsciously reflexive... we were doing this naturally in a less structured way prior to meeting JWs, but they are masters at giving solidity and a sense of reality to at least one of our already existing fantasy realms.

  just as electricity has no energy at ground level, so too a perceived reality has no emotion until it is seperated from another imagined alternative.... the comparison between the two provides the measure of the potential energy like the hot line of an electric socket compared to ground.... now the belief that one has explaining why this gap exists acts like a regulator circuit and provides the "quality" of the emotional power that is experienced.... so its more like Action [a] compared to alternative reality [F] generates the energy [E] transformed by belief [b] leading to consequence [c]. A[F] -(e)-> [B]--->[C].

  example. someone steps on your foot [A], reflexive comparison to alternative [no event] generates energy [pain] --> belief [intentional] --> consequence [anger]

  or discovery JWs have lied [A]----> alternative fantasy realm [no one lies to me] generates negative energy ---> belief [lying is evil] --> consequence [anger]

  or sexual urge generated by body [A]---> compared to fantasy ideal [celibacy?] ---> negative energy---> beilef [sex is evil] --> consequence [guilt]

  by manipulating the fantasy alternative which is used as the primary means of comparison, JWs can subtly influence anything that results even if conscious beliefs differ....the underlying emotionally generated energy dis-eases the entire system...and even though some may consciously be aware of the contractions of beliefs...the alternate fantasy realm which has become a background and often hidden from direct inspection still influences everything that one thinks and does.