by logansrun 33 Replies latest jw friends
Shotgun After that friend calls me an idiot and I kick him in the nuts was it my foot that hurt him or his reaction to the stimuli?
A buddist would say: What is a foot, but, an extension of my brain? Or if you kicked him in the nuts, in Space...would anyone hear him scream?
AlanF said:
Bradley, your basic thesis is disproved by the events surrounding Charles Manson and his followers. Manson killed no one, yet he'll be in prison the rest of his life. If you can understand why, and understand why his followers killed people, you can understand why you're wrong.
I admit I'm not that familiar with the Charles Manson case. I assume he led others to kill other people. Yes, he is quite responsible for the killings that occurred but, to some degree, so were his followers who carried out the killings (as long as they were not drugged or mentally psychotic). Again, what about the Nuremburg (sp?) trials?
Don't mistake me, I do believe the WT is very responsible for much of the harm that is done within the organization by it's individuals (ie the "blood issue"). Nonetheless, that does not mean they are 100% to blame or that individual JWs are not at all responsible for what they believe and do.
I think of the famous Milgram study where subjects were told to electrically shock peole in another room (and, of course, they really weren't shocking the person, it was all a ploy). Many people complied, but what is not commonly emphasized is that there were plenty of people that did not comply and said "no." If the first group was "brainwashed" into complying, what about the second group? If some individuals are "brainwashed" by the dubs, what about those that see through it or later leave it due to changing their own mind. If you say "All swans are white" all that is needed to disprove that statement is to find just one black swan.
Anyway, that's how I see it. Basically I'm just trying to say that we do bear some responsibility for being JWs, even if we were raised in it.
B.
I thought I'd clip a portion of an article located at www.skepdic.com under "mind control/brainwashing" I have also highlighted portions:
recruiters, kidnappings and inquisitions
That leaves recruiters for spiritual, religious, or personal growth groups; kidnappers; and inquisitors. First, the tactics of the recruiters differ substantially from those of kidnappers or inquisitors. Recruiters generally do not kidnap or capture their recruits, and they are not known to use torture as a typical conversion method. This raises the question of whether their victims are controlled without their consent. Some recruits are not truly victims of mind control and are willing members of their communities. Similarly, many recruits into mainstream religions should not be considered victims of mind control. To change a person's basic personality and character, to get them to behave in contradictory ways to lifelong patterns of behavior, to get them to alter their basic beliefs and values, would not necessarily count as mind control. It depends on how actively a person participates in their own transformation. You and I might think that a person is out of his mind for joining Scientology, Jehova's Witnesses, or Jim Roberts' The Brethren, but their "crazy beliefs and behaviors" are no wilder than the ones that millions of mainstream religious believers have chosen to accept and engage in.
Some recruits into non-mainstream religions seem to be brainwashed and controlled to the point that they will do great evil to themselves or others at the behest of their leader, including murder and suicide. Some of these recruits are in a state of extreme vulnerability when they are recruited and their recruiter takes advantage of that vulnerability. Such recruits may be confused or rootless due to ordinary transition difficulties (such as new college students), difficult life circumstances (such as failing in college or at a new job), or even tragic personal events (such as death to close friends or loved ones) or world events (such as war or terrorism). Some may be mentally ill or emotionally disturbed, greatly depressed, traumatized by self-abuse with drugs or abuse at the hands of others, etc. But it would not be to the advantage of the cult to actively recruit the emotionally disturbed. As one cult recruiter told me
Cults have complicated ideologies and practices that mentally or emotionally upset people have difficulty grasping. These structures are what allow the cult to control the person. Cults do not want people who are difficult to control.
Thus, while some recruits might be very vulnerable to those who would like to control their thoughts and actions, recruiters look for people they can make vulnerable. The recruiter quoted above also said
Cults seek out strong, intelligent, idealistic people. They also seek out the rich, no matter what their mental status is.
The goal is make the recruits vulnerable, to get them to give up whatever control over their thoughts and actions they might have. The goal is to make the cult members feel like passengers on a rudderless ship on a stormy sea. The recruiter or cult leader has a rudder and only he can guide the ship to safety.
The techniques available to manipulate the vulnerable are legion. One technique is to give them the love they feel they do not get elsewhere. Convince them that through you and your community they can find what they're looking for, even if they haven't got a clue that they're looking for anything. Convince them that they need faith in you and that you have faith in them. Convince them that their friends and family outside the group are hindrances to their salvation. Isolate them. Only you can give them what they need. You love them. You alone love them. You would die for them. So why wouldn't they die for you? But, love alone can only get you so far in winning them over. Fear is a great motivator. Fear that if they leave they'll be destroyed. Fear that if they don't cooperate they'll be condemned. Fear that they can't make it in this miserable world alone. The manipulator must make the recruit paranoid.
Love and fear may not be enough, however; so guilt must be used, too. Fill them with so much guilt that they will want to police their own thoughts. Remind them that they are nothing alone, but with you and God (or some Power or Technique) they are Everything. Fill them with contempt for themselves, so that they will want to be egoless, selfless, One with You and Yours. You not only strip them of any sense of self, you convince them that the ideal is be without a self. Keep up the pressure. Be relentless. Humiliate them from time to time. Soon they will consider it their duty to humiliate themselves. Control what they read, hear, see. Repeat the messages for eyes and ears. Gradually get them to make commitments, small ones at first, then work your way up until you own their property, their bodies, their souls. And don't forget to give them drugs, starve them, or have them meditate or dance or chant for hours at a time until they think they've had some sort of mystical experience. Make them think, "It was you, Lord, who made me feel so good." They won't want to give it up. They have never felt so good. Though they look as if they are in Hell to those of us on the outside, from the inside it looks like Heaven.
What religion doesn't use guilt and fear to get people to police their own thoughts? Even some therapists use similar methods to control their patients. They prey on the vulnerable. They demand total loyalty and trust as a price for hope and healing. They often isolate their prey from loved ones and friends. They try to own and control their clients. The methods of recruiters are not much different. Are the recruits, the converts to the faith, and the patients willing victims? How would we tell the difference between a willing victim and an unwilling victim? If we cannot do that, then we can't distinguish any true cases of mind control.
Recruiters and other manipulators are not using mind control unless they are depriving their victims of their free will. A person can be said to be deprived of his free will by another only if that other has introduced a causal agent which is irresistible. How could we ever demonstrate that a person's behavior is the result of irresistible commands given by a religious, spiritual, or personal growth leader? It is not enough to say that irrational behavior proves a person's free will has been taken from them. It may be irrational to give away all one's property, or to devote all one's time and powers to satisfying the desires of one's divine leader, or to commit suicide or plant poison bombs in subways because ordered to do so, but how can we justify claiming such irrational acts are the acts of mindless robots? For all we know, the most bizarre, inhumane, and irrational acts done by the recruits are done freely, knowingly and joyfully. Perhaps they are done by brain damaged or insane people. In either case, such people would not be victims of mind control.
For all we know, the most bizarre, inhumane, and irrational acts done by the recruits are done freely, knowingly and joyfully. Perhaps they are done by brain damaged or insane people. In either case, such people would not be victims of mind control.
nobody says it wasn't/can't be done that way (it's an art ... to get people there !!!)
now it is not because you've placed your faith into something that it have to abuse you
you'll be easely betrayed by a friend, cause you have confidence in him/her - when you would scrutenise your "so called" enemy. That is why they divide to rule : "THE WORLD" / WORLDLY etc ...
(brainwashing = influence-pub-plebiscite-lobby-propaganda / Mind controle = Elaborate Manipulation with brainwashing)
Bradley,
When I first became interested in psychology I read everything I could get my hands on. Within a short period of time I came to one very definite conclusion, none of the authors I read absolutely agreed with any of the other authors I read. Psychology is not an exact science. To make a statement that brainwashing is not scientific, based on the conclusions of several authors such as you have mentioned in this, and your other thread, is like saying chocolate is the best tasting flavor in the world. A control study group of ten thousand people saying so does not make it absolute nor does it make it a scientific fact. Standing barefoot in a puddle of water while sticking a metal object in an electrical socket will absolutely give you a shock or even electrocute you is an absolute fact and is based on absolute physical science. That is the difference between physical science and behavioral science, one does have factual and absolute results and the other does not. I have found this also to be true when reading conclusions from the skeptic society authors. Even though I agree with a lot of what they say, accepting it all as scientific gospel is just as blind as accepting religious theory as an absolute.
There are a lot of great comments in both of your threads and this is one of the best thread topics I have read on this board in a long time. That is my opinion, not an absolute fact. Your presenting your arguments in your first thread comes off like you were trying to make your conclusions from what you have read as an absolute scientific fact. Thus your thread title "Brainwashing" does not exist," that is a fairly definitive statement and denotes an absolute conclusion. Then you start your next thread on the subject by saying in your first paragraph "I thought I’d comment further on 'brainwashing” and why it really could only exist in certain circumstances." It seems like some open mindedness has slipped in from one thread to another. A closed mind and an open mind seems to be the underlining theme of both threads. Thought provoking comments by a large majority of those posting in these threads seems to have changed your stance on brain washing being scientifically nonexistent, to it, "existing in certain circumstances." It's interesting how the mind works and how it is influenced, isn't it?
It is my opinion, not an absolute fact, that there is a huge difference between being raised a JW and becoming one as an adult. It all comes from the differences in programing. Whether you call it brainwashing, programing, mind control or mental manipulation is irrelevant, the fact is, it is used to convince people what you are saying is the truth and an absolute fact. For both groups it is based on defining and or redefining ideas a concepts. For the JW child who is learning about everything their little sponge like mind perceives, it is defining and hard wire programing what everything is according to the JW definition of things. God, love, obedience, fear, etc. For the older adult "bible study" it is redefining what they once had limited knowledge of. That is why the JW's look for the meek, humble, and "teachable."
As a child you are learning a language that defines "things" and as you grow a little older you lean "concepts." This is where the hard wire programing begins. You learn about the concept of Jehovah and make it as real as you do the fact that the letter "A" is the sound made first in the word apple. That is not brainwashing, it is learning and programing at the same time. To a JW that was raised in the religion since infancy, the concept of Jehovah as well as all it includes is as real as the language they have learned, the physical world around them, and the people they know as their parents, siblings, and extended religious family they call brothers and sisters. Again, is this brainwashing? No, it is learning and programing. The thought or "concept" that what they have learned about the religion in this period of time is wrong, is as psychologically devastating as waking up one morning and finding out your parents are not your real parents and the word "apple" really means "hand grenade." The hard wired programing from infancy is hard to differentiate between it being just a concept because it has become a learned reality. That takes away your theory of A, B, and C. Only when you have the ability to understand alternative concepts will your "B" factor have any validity.
This factor is absolutely why cults like the JW's insist on keeping their children away from the "world" as they say. They fear the introduction of alternative concepts that open the mind of the child and may cause them to think on their own. Independent thinking outside of cults is encouraged and even rewarded because it introduces new concepts that may help mankind and improve our existence. Discouraging independent thinking keeps ones mind closed and focused on specific concepts that have been programed and accepted as the only way to think and believe. This again is not brainwashing, it is controlling and stifling an already hardwired programed mind. They define the consequences of independent thinking as "loosing ones faith" that equates to death. To the born into JW, this is as real as standing in that puddle of water and sticking the metal object in the electrical socket and is very hard to redefine in their minds.
To the adult who has become a JW in later years, the JW's seek out those who have little knowledge "teachable" of historical, archeological, or scientific facts. They also seek out those who have experienced pain or unhappy lives and have succumbed to it's pressure "meek." Also those with low self esteem that do not have the inner strength, intelligence, or upbringing to think for themselves "humble." They then "redefine" those somewhat admirable attributes to fit into their "we will save you from yourself" and teach you what real love means. Since some of them have not experience real love, having it redefined as a close nit religious group makes it easy for them to eventually define love as turning your back on family and friends because they no longer believe the twisted concepts you have just learned. Depending on the level of emotional and psychological "need" of the new convert will determine their level of acceptance of these new concepts and redefined realities.
This is where the brainwashing or reprograming comes into effect. Call it what you wish, it is still clearing out the mind of what it once understood, or did not know in the first place to be true and replacing it with newly defined concepts they "wish" to be true. If a persons life was filled with pain and lack of love, anything new may look very inviting. The person does have the choice "as you have mentioned" to accept these new concepts or not, but given the reasons they chose to listen to the JW's in the first place weighs heavy on their ability to see what the JW's are telling them makes sense or not. The techniques used in convincing a new one the JW are right, loving, and caring is very well developed. They do not start out a bible study by saying you will have to let your child die if he ever needs a blood transfusion, or, turn your back on your children if they get baptized and then leave the religion, or never talk to them again if they become a JW and you decide to leave, or any of the things that have cause many of us to leave the cult.
They start by redefinition of reality with the concept of living forever on a coconut island with all the criminals of the world dead so they cant hurt you any more. They move on to having grandpa and grandma being resurrected and helping you pick grapes the size of basket balls while you stand on the back of a man eating lion as you pick year round harvests of banana's from a banana tree. They then tell you if you fall off a five hundred foot cliff you won't die because no one dies anymore no matter what you do. Once you buy into all of this, slipping in all the negative stuff seems to be a good swap. Is this brain washing? Is this controlling ones mind? Given that there is no absolute scientific proof of what happens to you after you die, absolutely. It is the essence and draw of all religions.
Nobody wants to die, survival is one of our strongest and most basic instincts. Their concept of alternative reality is based on that basic instinct. The JW's did not put that survival instinct into all of us, we were born with it. That instinct is not unique to only humans but with every living creature on the planet. We as humans differ from the animals because we spend a good portion of our time trying to contemplate the survival instinct instead of just accepting it. Animals do not care about the many possibilities of why they have it or what might happen after they die, only humans do. Belief in any concept concerning it changes nothing in it's reality, only the contemplation of it and our action based on what we choose to believe. We live and we die, just as any living creature on the planet. It is the learning, programing, brainwashing, manipulation of our thoughts concerning that survival and what happens after that separates us from the rest of all the living creatures and gives us the illusion that we deserve more. Thinking and contemplating outside of that survival instinct seems to be our nature. Accepting the many various concepts about it, just seems to be a part of it all and that comes from programing, learning and or brainwashing.
The JW's as well as all the other religions of the world simply use it, redefine it, embellish it's possibilities, and served it up on an illusional silver platter. We consciously choose which theory of continued survival we want to accept, just as those who become suicide bombers who believe they will instantly go to paradise once they kill off their victims as well as themselves, but how ones mind is brainwashed, programed, or has had the details of that survival redefined, it still comes down to the instinct of survival. What a person chooses to believe as far as the details of survival is secondary to that basic survival instinct and is defined by how they are programed, brainwashed, or taught. In that, we have limited choices based mainly on our surrounding cultural, social, and intellectual environment. We as humans may have a choice in what to believe, but I don't think we have a choice in whether to believe. Choosing not to believe a religious theory is still choosing a belief. How a belief is developed can and has been derived from mental manipulation on various levels, including controlled or forced manipulation of thought which many be called brain washing. Belief falls into the realm of behavioral science as well as what the skeptic society calls pseudo science and doses not have any scientific absolutes.
Good thread Bradley.
Dave
Bradley,
To me the most questionable part of your very interesting demonstration is the element of "free will" at stage B. Free will suggests a 50/50 balance, which might be marginally correct but is statistically wrong (you can never predict the next dice result even though you can predict the result of a great number of casts). Every advertiser works with statistics.
If a stimulus A induces a belief B1 and a consequence C1 in 80 % of subjects, and a belief B2 and C2 in the 20 % left; if by sorting the subjects according to different factors (age, IQ, education, social status or other background elements) this ratio changes significantly, what does that mean about the "free will" of the individual subject?
I personally wouldn't use the term "brainwashing" either; I agree that we are responsible for our personal history inasmuch as we did take part in it. But looking back, the question, idle or silly as it may be, remains: could I, as I was at this particular moment of my life under those circumstances, have chosen another course? Perhaps we never can tell for sure. Or perhaps we are just as the drops of rain falling from the clouds on the mountain ridge. Which drop will fall on this or that side we cannot tell, but if we had the exact knowledge of all the factors (weight of the drops, force of the wind) we could.
Nicely said seven0006!!
OK...so why am I back on this thread--was going to leave it alone, but I am here again for some reason-maybe just feeling a little argumentative tonight.
In the Encarta Encyclopedia it says this:
brainwashing Inducing somebody to believe or do something, such as buy a new product, especially by means of constant repetition or advertising.
I have always felt that the above meaning was accurate, but I guess I would say that the word means different things to different people. I remember back in the 60s my grandfather telling me about how the music of the day was brainwashing the youth (he wasn't a JW either) Interesting thread anyway. Made me think about some things along the way, but I think my brain is tired now--goodnight.
cybs
seven006...Bravo ! I was just gonna say that !
Brad, do you care to elaborate on your comment, "...we bear some responsibility being JW's..."
