Research on the validity of 1914

by Bluegrass Tom 78 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  City Fan

  Scholar,

  That is why in respect to chronology the FDS has shown a bias towards the biblical record over above that of secular records

  But the biblical record also supports 586/587 BC. Take for example verses 1 and 5 of Zechariah 7:

  In the fourth year of King Darius, the word of the LORD came to Zechari'ah in the fourth day of the ninth month, which is Chislev. "Say to all the people of the land and the priests, When you fasted and mourned in the fifth month and in the seventh, for these seventy years, was it for me that you fasted?"

  The fourth year of Darius I was 518 BC. If the people had been fasting and mourning for Jerusalem for 'these seventy years' in 518BC then the first year would have been 587/586 BC.

  That is why in respect to chronology the FDS has shown a bias towards the biblical record over above that of secular records

  The Watchtower has shown bias toward its own interpretation of certain biblical verses, not the biblical record.

  CF.
• 

  scholar

  City Fan

  Your interpretation of Zechariah 7:1-5 is preposterous as it is without foundation and contradicts both Scripture and well established history. The Bible indicates quite clearly that the seventy years ran until the royalty of Persia began to reign when in Cyrus first year (537) released the exiles from Babylon. The fact that Darius 1 is ruling at that time establishes that the seventy years had aleady concluded some twenty years earlier when Daniel had correctly discerned in the first year of Darius the Mede that the seventy years had ended (Daniel 9:2).There is nothing in either Zechaiah 1:7,12 and &:1-5 to suppose that the seventy had not concluded but were according to some in continuation, It is ovbviuos that the seventy years referred to belongs to the past and not to the present.

  All you are doing is simply rehashing Jonsson who discusses this subject on pp.226-8 in GTR 1998. In response you should read what Rolf Furuli says about this matter in pp.67-9 in his Persian Chronology And The Length Of The Babylonian Exile Of The Jews, 2003.

  scholar

  BA MA Studies in Religion
• 

  stillajwexelder

  I have a horrible feeling that 1914 will still be around until 2035 - once 2034 comes and goes 1914 will only then be truly thrown out of the window - or defenestrated if you prefer Scholar
• 

  outbutnotdown

  stillajwexelder,

  What is the significance of 2034? I have heard that date before but I can't recall the "logic" behind it's importance.

  scholar,

  You keep arguing the 607 date. IMO, no one can absolutely prove or disprove and even if they could a new theory would be thrown in as to was "jerusalem not symbolically destroyed in 607 after all?

  The questions I have tried to ask you and points that I have tried to make go beyond that. The year 607 is only important in the sense that it leads to 1914, in current JW chronology. Why the fixation on 1914? And could you give me your own personal thoughts as well? I have given you my viewpoint on why 1914 is so important to JW's. I am respectfully asking you to respond or to give me a reason why you choose to not do so?

  Brad
• 

  Incense_and_Peppermints

  from the blog of one of Jehovah's Witnesses... (names, pics and links edited out for privacy, nothing else changed. see how those who question the governing body get treated...):
  

  xxxxx ( xxx) wrote, @ 2004-10-15 09:54:00

  Current mood:

  contemplative

  The Best and the Worst of New Light - personal observations
  I?ll start with the best. The year was 1993; the place, our District Convention in Providence, RI.
  
  First, some background. Matthew 24:29 had always puzzled me. What was the tribulation referred to in that verse? It was sense should we interpret the word ?immediately?? Also what about these signs in the heavens, what did they really mean? Being the obsessive person I tend to be, I used to wrestle with the Society?s interpretations. For a while they said the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE was the tribulation referred to and that it Jehovah?s eyes it could be considered ?immediately? even though 2000 years would intervene. Ummm, no, that didn?t make sense. They also talked about space probes and even a form of space radiation as fulfilling the celestial phenomena described in those verses. Again, that seemed highly improbable. I was left quietly disagreeing with the official interpretation.
  
  Back to 1993. I was intrigued as I pored over the convention program. It was clear Matthew 24 was going to discussed. The speaker asked the audience to open their Bibles to that chapter. You know that feeling when we?re asked to follow along as a speaker reads a scripture that almost everyone in the audience knows by heart? Well, I did NOT get that feeling this time. I could just sense that something was going to be different. I?ll never forget the feeling of elation as the speaker announced the official change of understanding of these verses! These were not past events at all!! These events lie in the FUTURE! I could get a sense of what Paul must have felt like when the scales fell from his eyes. It made so much sense. The tribulation talked about is THE Great Tribulation, nothing that happened 2000 years ago or in 1914. After the opening phase of this tribulation, Jesus himself will make it clear to the world that his Kingdom has at last come. The celestial signs will be nothing natural or manmade but instead will announce that the era of uninterrupted rule by mankind has ended.
  
  As time went on, more events were shifted to be understood as happening in the future. It just felt so correct to place the judging of the sheep and goats as being in the future. Of course, Jesus is not judging people?s eternal fate right now, it is only when he sits down on his throne of power. And the scripture about raising ourselves erect expecting our deliverance ? that is also FUTURE. However fearsome events in the world may be presently, they will pale in comparison to how all humans will react during the Great Tribulation.
  
  
  As much as I was jubilant over the corrections stated above, there was also a crushing blow that occurred shortly after. During my late teens and early 20s, I went through a period of intensive studying, both of the Bible and the publications. I would just pick up the bound volumes and read. In a way I relived the wave of excitement of the late 60s through the mid 70s. Twenty-five years after its printing, the article ?Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?? written in 1968 still sent shivers through me as I read it. I could only imagine what I would have felt like if I had been alive at the time. As I continued my reading of the volumes, I could see how the Society was becoming increasingly wary of any chronologically based prophetic timetables. Still, one powerful time-based interpretation remained: the generation that saw the events of 1914 would not pass away. In my heart of hearts, I just felt a prescient awareness that this would not last. I vividly remember ripping the paper casing that each Awake came in when they used to be mailed. After removing the wrapper, I immediately opened to the inside cover to read the paragraph on why Awake is published. Each issue, there it was: ?the generation that saw the events of 1914 will not pass away.?
  
  Till one fateful day in October 1995. What?s this? The words are gone!!!
  
  Matthew 24:34 had to be one of my most used scriptures in my ministry. I used to do a lot of informal witnessing when I worked for Sears. Between phone calls I had time to talk to the person sitting next to me. Every few months our seating would be changed and I would get a new person to witness to. I had some incredible discussions. Invariably our discussions would turn to the signs around us, World War I and finally, Matthew 24:34.
  
  Obviously, the teaching of the generation of 1914 not passing away was incorrect. Nine years after the change was made this fact becomes patently clear. Ninety years have now elapsed since October 1914. That generation for all intents and purposes is dead. Still, at the time of the change, this was not so clear. In fact, excitement was building amongst most Witnesses because of simple arithmetic. I think the wording of the article is what upset me more than anything. It was somehow placed upon the readership of the Watchtower that somehow THEY had misconstrued the interpretation. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth ? the inside cover of every Awake was crystal clear.
  
  There is no escaping that there is a time element inherent to verses 32-34 of Matthew chapter 24. Jesus compares it to the seasons. When fig leaves appear, THEN something happens. That is not a nebulous concept but speaks to a definite timeframe. Could Jesus have been referring to the events of the earlier verses (29-33)? He said the generation will by NO MEANS pass away. Perhaps many if not most of those alive to see those signs will see the final end.
  
  So, we wait patiently to see how future events unfold. I?m convinced that as we get closer more of the prophetic Scriptures will be opened to us. I eagerly await the thrill of learning the complete truth of the prophecies as Jehovah chooses to reveal them to his servants.

  ---

  zzzzz 2004-10-15 09:42

  I love these observations. To me it had seemed that the understanding of Matthew 24 had been just under the brim of many articles of the time, but that was when they made it explicit and clear. I remember sitting there so ready to hear it and nodding my head in recognition and appreciation. It's as if they put the pieces of a puzzle in my mind together that I knew the whole picture of, but just couldn't get the pieces together right on my own. The feeling of the holy spirit in that stadium, seeing people jotting stuff down feverishly and being close to tears of joy and appreciation -- I knew then and there that Jehovah was definitely and unequivocally using the Governing Body exclusively for our benefit. (After all, how many times have we experienced a deeply personal spiritual need, only to see it answered in a publication soon after, sometimes having been written BEFORE we even prayed about it?) That beings me to a puzzling question: I'd never gotten the impression that the governing body implied that readers had misinterpreted their interpretation. If such an idea were intended, I'm certain that more people would have reacted, and the memory of that kind of event would still linger in the back of many people's minds. What SPECIFICALLY were the words that made you feel this way? It's beyond me that something like this could go down without thinking discerning brothers noticing.

  xxxxx 2004-10-15 10:31

  Believe me, zzzz, I wasn't the only one to react to these words. There was palpable resentment amongst a lot of brothers about the way the change was made. Assigning blame to the readership was entirely inappropriate. Here it is: "Eager to see the end of this evil system, JEHOVAH'S PEOPLE [the Witness readership] have at times speculated [simple arithmetic is not speculation] about the time when the "great tribulation" would break out, even tying this to calculations [people only live so long, it doesn't take much calculation] of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we "bring a heart of wisdom in," not by speculating about how many years or days make up a generation, but by thinking about how we "count our days" in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah. (Psalm 90:12) Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term "generation" as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics." Compare this to the 1980 retraction of the 1975 teaching where the PUBLISHERS of this magazine were specifically implicated in what was to be regretted. While Jesus did use the word 'generation' in a negative sense referring to the the people of the day, he NEVER used it in that sense when talking prophetically and when establishing a time element with a clear illustration. For example, the words 'lawless', 'law-defying' and 'lawlessness' are almost exclusively used in the Scriptures as referring to a SPIRITUALLY bankrupt condition. Yet in Matthew 24, when Jesus speaks about an increasing of lawlessness, this is interpretted as criminal activity by non-believers. Because of the context of the word, in this case the Watchtower interprets it differently. To me is seems hard to understand how the time element can be removed from the word 'generation' in verse 34.

  	(duplicate post removed)

  zzzz 2004-10-15 12:02

  From my recollection, the conditions to which Jesus referred as a 'generation,' a contiguous group with identifiable commonalities, existed for over 200 years. (I'll have to research that.) Lawlessness, in my understanding, is a condition that is irrespective of civil code. It is a lack of a sense of obligation to a moral code, which as we know as true Christians, does in fact cover every aspect of life, moral, criminal or otherwise (to use secular definitions in this instance). When Jehovah refers to someone as lawless, the individual(s) in question may or may not abide by the laws of the land, but in their hearts they wish to be free of "law". Haven't we already had lots of explanation for the Greek word used for generation? One has to detach their English-language understanding of foreign words, particularly the more powerfully expressive Greek. Now the first I saved for last. Your interjections and emphases are inflammatory, and your disdain for the Governing Body seeps through once again. Brothers did indeed persist in calculating generations and whatnot. People need to accpet responsibility for what they do, and admitting an error is not a bad thing. In fact, denying it is worse! The Governing Body is likewise comprised of people of Jehovah, and this method of arriving at when the end will be is tempting. Their "current" conclusion you quoted does not lend to an accusatory tone, but you take offense anyway. Brother, why do you persist in this? As Paul said, "Why not raher let yourself be wronged?" Or would you like to nitpick at Paul's words, too?

  xxxx 2004-10-15 12:45

  I'm sorry you took it that way. I gave a balanced viewpoint. I gave credit where credit was due. The revisions I mentioned in the first part of my post obviously came from the Governing Body and I credit them for that. I'm surprised you can't gather that from my tone in describing my elation at that convention. People planned their lives around the former understanding of the generation not passing away. This wasn't something they dreamed up but instead were just basing their faith upon the current interpretation. I think it's understandable that there would be some confusion with such a major change and it was a *major* change. The Governing Body has a lot of responsibility on their shoulders and they carry out most of their commission admirably. I think we're all grateful for that. Are they beyond some criticism is some areas? No.

  zzz 2004-10-15 13:36

  I don't think criticism is beneficial, especially in this unique situation. Since these brothers are used by Jehovah in a special way, we must be even more willing to overlook and forgive when we perceive an error, or misjudgment. Our interest is to upbuild and encourage each other, not to poke at the straw in our brothers' eyes. AS I've stated before, the Governing Body never holds to a serious error for long, if at all.

  yyyyy 2004-10-15 12:21

  If such an idea were intended, I'm certain that more people would have reacted, and the memory of that kind of event would still linger in the back of many people's minds. What SPECIFICALLY were the words that made you feel this way? It's beyond me that something like this could go down without thinking discerning brothers noticing. More like, if you question anything this is what happens: Your interjections and emphases are inflammatory, and your disdain for the Governing Body seeps through once again.

  	zzzz 2004-10-15 12:22
  	Why do you even bother?
• 

  toreador

  Why if 607 is SO important for our day to know did not Jehovah have 607 carefully put in the bible. Why do we have to use astonomy and secular evidence to arrive a biblical prophetical date? Huh?

  I want to know. Tell me Scholar.

  Toreador
• 

  stillajwexelder

  stillajwexelder, What is the significance of 2034? I have heard that date before but I can't recall the "logic" behind it's importance

  All to do with Noah and the work we have to do - will try and post some links to earlier threads - but the figure of 120 years keeps coming up - so 1914 + 120 = 2034 - I promise I will get you some links on this
• 

  stillajwexelder

  DEC 15TH 2003 WATCHTOWER COPYWRITE WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY

  Our

  Watchfulness Takes On Greater Urgency

  "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."?MATTHEW 24:4

  4

  Consider the conditions prevailing during the time preceding a one-of-a-kind event in human history?the great Deluge of Noah?s day. People were so bad that Jehovah "felt hurt at his heart." He declared: "I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground." (Genesis 6:6, 7) And he did just that. Drawing a parallel between then and now, Jesus said: "Just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be."?Matthew 24:37.

  5

  It is reasonable to assume that Jehovah feels about the present world as he felt about the pre-Flood world. Since he brought an end to the ungodly world of Noah?s day, he will certainly destroy the wicked world of today. Having a clear understanding of the parallel between that time and our day should fortify our conviction that the end of the present world is near. What, then, are the similarities? There are at least five. The first is that a warning of coming destruction is given in no uncertain terms.

  Warned

  of "Things Not Yet Beheld"

  6

  In Noah?s day, Jehovah declared: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years." (Genesis 6:3) The issuance of this divine decree in 2490 B.C.E. marked the beginning of the end for that ungodly world. Just think what that meant for those then living! Only 120 years more and Jehovah would bring "the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens."?Genesis 6:17.

  7

  Noah received the warning of the upcoming catastrophe decades in advance, and he wisely used the time to prepare for survival. "After being given divine warning of things not yet beheld," says the apostle Paul, "[Noah] showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household." (Hebrews 11:7) What about us? Some 90 years have passed since the last days of this system of things began in 1914. We are certainly in "the time of the end." (Daniel 12:4) How should we respond to warnings we have been given? "He that does the will of God remains forever," states the Bible. (1 John 2:17) Now is therefore the time to do Jehovah?s will with a keen sense of urgency.

  8

  In modern times, sincere students of the Bible have learned from the inspired Scriptures that this system is doomed to destruction. ---------------------

  9

  Jehovah has kept these warnings in front of his people by means of timely reminders through the spiritual food provided by "the faithful and discreet slave."-------------------- An integral part of the Kingdom message preached earth wide by Jehovah?s Witnesses is the warning that God?s Kingdom will soon remove human rulership. This warning is not to be taken lightly. Almighty God always keeps his word. He did in Noah?s day, and he will in our day.?2 Peter 3:3-7.

  15

  When God?s Messianic Kingdom was established in heaven in 1914, the enthroned King, Jesus Christ, took epoch-making action. Satan the Devil and his demons were ousted from heaven to the vicinity of the earth. (Revelation 12:9-12) Before the Flood, disobedient angels forsook their heavenly position voluntarily; in modern times, however, they were forcibly evicted. Furthermore, they now lack the ability to materialize human bodies on earth in order to enjoy illicit fleshly pleasures. So in frustration, anger, and fear of impending judgment, they influence men and organizations to perform inhuman acts of crime and violence of even greater magnitude than those of Noah?s day. Jehovah obliterated the pre-Flood world after disobedient angels and their offspring had filled it with badness. Make no mistake about it, he will not do any less in our day! (Psalm 37:10) However, those staying watchful today know that their deliverance is near.

  The

  Message Is Preached

  16

  The fourth point of similarity between the present day and the pre-Flood world is seen in the work that Noah was commissioned to do. Noah constructed a huge ark. He was also "a preacher." (2 Peter 2:5) What message did he preach? Noah?s preaching evidently included a call for repentance and a warning of coming destruction. Jesus said that the people of Noah?s day "took no note until the flood came and swept them all away."?Matthew 24:38, 39.

  17

  Similarly, as Jehovah?s Witnesses diligently fulfill their commission to preach, the message of God?s Kingdom is being declared worldwide. In almost every part of the globe,

  18

  Given the spiritual and moral bankruptcy of the days preceding the Flood, it is not hard to imagine how Noah?s family became the laughingstock of incredulous neighbors and the object of abuse and ridicule. The end did come though. Similarly, "ridiculers with their ridicule" abound in the last days. "Yet Jehovah?s day will come as a thief," states the Bible. (2 Peter 3:3, 4, 10) Come it will at the appointed time. It will not be late. (Habakkuk 2:3) How wise we are to keep on the watch!

  Only

  a Few Survive

  19

  The parallel between Noah?s day and our day does not end with the badness of the people and their destruction. As there were Flood survivors, so there will be those who survive the end of the present system of things. ----------------- 20 God?s Word assures us that "a great crowd" will "come out of the great tribulation."

  "Keep on the Watch"

  21

  Although the Flood seems remote from our day, it clearly provides a warning that we must not ignore. (Romans 15:4) The similarities between Noah?s day and our day should make us increasingly aware of the significance of what is happening and alert us to the thieflike coming of Jesus to execute judgment upon the wicked.
• 

  stillajwexelder

  http://freeminds.org/history/endin2034.htm
• 

  outbutnotdown

  stillajwexelder,

  Thanks for the info. I am not entirely pleased with you though......

  You have just confirmed to me that my family has 30 more years, WRITTEN DOWN BY GOD HIMSELF, that they should keep shunning me and my kids...... AAARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

  Brad

  P.S. I am not really mad at you.... you are only the messenger....