Research on the validity of 1914

by Bluegrass Tom 78 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    Scholar,

    You interpretation is preposterous and is not supported by Bible commentators. Did you bother to check what commentaries have to say on this subject of Zechariah 7:5 and 1:12

    Well, yes. From John J Collins 'Daniel' page 349.

    seventy years: The reference (in Dan 9:2) is to Jer 25:11,12; 29:10. In Jeremiah's prophecy the seventy years most probably begin from the first capture of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 597 B.C.E. In Jer 25:11-12 the context is the desolation of "this land" and the subjugation of the peoples round about. In Jer 29:10 the context is advice to the deportees. [See, however, Kratz (Translatio Imperii, 224-25), who holds that Jer 29:10 refers to the duration of Babylonian supremacy in the west, which he dates from the Battle of Carchemish in 605/604 B.C.E. Ross E.Winckle ("Jeremiah's Seventy Weeks For Babylon: A Re-Assessment. Part II: The Historical Data," 289-299) would push the starting point back to 609 B.C.E. so that it could be accurately fulfilled in 539 B.C.E.]

    The seventy years is generally regarded as a round number, equivalent to a lifetime. (Holladay, Jeremiah I, 668-69) The same number is found in the Black Stone of Esarhaddon: Marduk decreed seventy years of desolation for Babylon, when it was destroyed by Sennacherib in 689 B.C.E., but relented and allowed it to be restored after eleven years.

    According to 2 Chron 36:20-22, Jeremiah's prophecy referred to the period from the destruction of the temple in 586 B.C.E. and was fulfilled in the restoration under Cyrus (so also Ezra 1:1). According to Zech 1:12, the seventy years extended to the second year of Darius I of Persia (519 B.C.E.)

    In the fictional chronology of Daniel, chap 9 is set before the advent of Cyrus. The real author of Daniel, however, wrote long after the Chronicler and Zechariah, and pointedly rejected their interpretation of the prophecy.

    It could not have continued till 518 because the seventy years were not fulfilled so the angelic reminder could only referred to something that had already concluded namely the seventy years.

    Again, you don't seem to understand that prophetical interpretations can exist in the bible itself. Here is some more background to Zechariah and some commentary on dating the destruction of the temple from Edwin Yamauchi "Persia and the Bible" p155, 159. Hopefully it will show you why the fasting 'these seventy years' extends to the 519 BC.

    The Rebuilding of the Jewish Temple: Solomon's temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 or 586 BC. Although the Jews who had returned under Cyrus had laid the foundation of a second temple in 536 BC, work was halted during the next twenty years in the face of opposition (Ezra 4:1-5). The Lord then raised up two prophets to stir the people to action (Ezra 5:1).

    Beginning on August 29, 520 BC (Hag 1:1), and continuing until December 18 (Hag 2:1-9, 20ff), Haggai delivered a series of three messages to provoke the people into recommencing work on the temple. Two months after Haggai's first message, Zechariah joined him (Zech 1:1).

    The temple was thus finished on March 12, 515 BC, a little over seventy years after it's destruction. As the renewed work on the temple had begun September 21, 520 BC (Hag 1:4-15), sustained effort had been expended for four years and three months by the inspired community.

    Footnote: Scholars such as Albright, Freedman, Tadmor and Wiseman, who believe that the Jews used a calendar beginning in Nisan (April), date the fall of Jerusalem to the summer of 587 BC. Others such as Horn, Malamat, Redford, Saggs and Thiele, who believe the Jews used a calendar beginning in Tishri (September), date the fall of of Jerusalem to the summer of 586 BC. See H. Tadmor "Chronology of the Last Kings of Judah", p226-30; S. Horn, "The Babylonian Chronicle and the Ancient Calendar of the Kingdon of Judah", p 12-27; K. Freedy and D. Redford, "The Dates in Ezekiel in Relation to Biblical, Babylonian and Egyptian Sources", p462-85;

    Hopefully you can see now why some scholars choose 586 and some 587. If Jonsson chooses 587 as the date it does not invalidate the rest of his research, as you seem to think it does.

    This is not WT interpretation but an observation based upon many commentaries.

    O.K. Your turn. Which commentaries and please provide some quotations.

    By the way, that's a great link AlanF!

    CF.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    City fan,

    You've exploited the classic rebutal to the "angel of the LORD" in Zechariah.

    It could not have continued till 518 because the seventy years were not fulfilled so the angelic reminder could only referred to something that had already concluded namely the seventy years.

    Here "Scholar" gives a helpless excuse for the "angelic reminder" which comes right out of the book, "Paradise restored to mankind" by his theocracy, page 133 para. 23:

    23

    Be it remembered, also, that those unforgettable seventy years were the first seventy years of the Gentile Times, "the appointed times of the nations." So, when those seventy years ended in 537 B.C.E., the Gentile Times still continued on for Jerusalem to be trampled on by the Gentile nations. (Luke 21:24) Apparently, then, the angel who cried out, "O Jehovah of armies, how long?" was referring back to that former period of seventy years as an illustration of Jehovah?s denunciation of his chosen people. He was asking whether Jehovah?s denunciation of them was being renewed because of their long neglect toward His temple. And so the angel was asking how long it would yet be before Jehovah would show mercy to Jerusalem and the other cities of Judah. The prophet Zechariah was also interested in knowing this. We, also!

    This nonsense doesnt wash, because the angel of the LORD says specifcally " these seventy years" Further there is no implication of whether seventy years would be renewed.

    The witness has to swallow this ridiculous senerio given by the "tower"

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Unscholar croaked:

    : Alan F-Disciple of Carl O Jonsson

    LOL! I disagree with a number of things Carl believes. But so what? On this topic, he agrees with all other world-class scholars, and so do I.

    : You talk about cultish behaviour when you probably have not studied Jorgeensen's nonsense

    I read the article carefully. You, though, obviously have not read past the abstract. Otherwise you couldn't call what she wrote nonsense. At least, an intelligent reader couldn't.

    : because you seem to be mesmerized by the aside that he is Danish linguist

    Not at all. I'm interested in the arguments, not the credentials. You though, are a stereotypical JW in this department, touting your own supposed credentials and ignoring sound argumentation in favor of your favorite "authority" -- the Governing Body whom you worship.

    : with a sound knowledge of the Biblical languages.

    Just comparing Jorgensen's writings with Furuli's will convince anyone not a complete moron who is the better scholar. Furuli's writing is often infantile.

    : Perhaps I could say this of Rolf Furuli: a professional Norwegian linguist and a acknowledged expert in Semitic languages. Senior Lecturer in Semitic Studies, University of Oslo. BA MA PhD.

    More stereotypical touting of credentials, I see. Let me clue you in on something about Furuli. I've spoken to certain Norwegian ex-JWs who personally knew Furuli, or have spoken to academics who know him. They unanimously agree that he's a sham scholar, virtually a nutcase who is not respected by his supposed peers.

    : If the Jorgenen's

    Can't you manage to properly spell names that are already spelled out for you? Also note: in English we do not refer to a person with "the". Thus, we do not say, "the Furuli wrote nonsense", but "Furuli wrote nonsense". We do, however, say things like, "the moron unscholar screwed up again".

    : critique of Furuli's thesis particularly focussing on the 'seventy years'

    It's not so much concerned with "the seventy years" per se -- that's already largely been established through a huge body of published material -- as it is with showing why Furuli's argumentation is faulty.

    : is so bashing then tell me what Calender Dates does he

    "Kristen" is a female, you twit.

    : offer for the begining and end of the 'seventy years'?

    She doesn't say anything about the beginning, but implicitly supports the date of 539 B.C. for the end. Why implicitly? Because she explicitly supports Jonsson's scriptural exposition. Had you read the article, you'd know this.

    By the way, why do you continue to propagate the lie that Cyrus, the first king of Babylon after the fall of Nebuchadnezzar's line, was not a Persian and began ruling in 537 B.C.? You know the truth.

    : Are these dates in agreement with the Jonsson hypothesis in his GTR? If not, Why not? This will truly determine the merit of this article.

    Your usual strawman style argument. At this point, even you should see why the questions are silly.

    AlanF

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Scholar,

    Can you name one interpretation of prophetic scripture made the past fifty years that is exclusive to the WTS that they have interpreted correctly?

    I have now asked this question of you many, many, may times and have never received an answer from you. As an apologist of WTS doctrine it should not be difficult for you to answer this question if you truly believe what the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses are instructing you to believe. Remember, Jehovah is watching just how accurately you make this defense on his account. Accurate knowledge, if you recall leads to life, inaccurate knowledge leads to 'Christendom'.

    So to make it easy, please fill in this space :

    One intepretation of prophectic scripture that is exclusive to the WTS and that the WTS has interpreted correctly within the past fifty years is :................................................................................................................................................

    Thank you for your anticipated cooperation - HS

  • toreador
    toreador

    tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock.

    You might be waiting a while Hillary.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    HS, unscholar is stupid, but not quite so stupid as to fall for your trap.

    AlanF

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    lol...Alan,

    HS, unscholar is stupid, but not quite so stupid as to fall for your trap.

    I would not count on that. I have seen some of his other attempts at defending his particular theological corner. Anybody who can walk around for so long with a chronological mouse-trap firmly attached to the end of his nose will eventually fall for any trap, however obvious it might be.

    I am just quietly fishing on the bank, waiting for a bite....lol. It is a very pleasant day and I am in no hurry.

    Best regards - HS

  • outbutnotdown
    outbutnotdown

    hillary_step and Alan F,

    He may want to prove you guys wrong so badly that he will contact the GB to try to get an answer from them. They will then learn what he has been doing on this apostate website and will PROMPTLY disfellowship him!!!!!

    If this happens, scholar, we will still take you in to comfort you.

    Brad

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    "Mice-trap", HS? Have you been partaking a bit too much of the bubbly?

    No matter, I have. Or wine anyway.

    : I am just quietly fishing on the bank, waiting for a bite....lol. It is a very pleasant day and I am in no hurry.

    Fishing in a barrel? Yes, it's fun, for awhile.

    Brad, as stupid as unscholar is, he's not quite so stupid as to not know perfectly well that he's on his own here. The GB and its braindead minions would understand in a heartbeat that the few heretical opinions that unscholar holds would allow them to DF him in an instant, and unscholar is well aware of this. So this guy will never, of his own free will, speak with the GB.

    AlanF

  • outbutnotdown
    outbutnotdown

    Alan F,

    I agree. I was kind of kidding, however I do think we could still find room in our hearts and minds for him if he does get df'd. We have so much more room in said hearts and minds now that they have become opened, since leaving the WTS.

    Brad

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