I see nothing in Sheila's posts which would indicate that her belief in God makes her a bad person or causes trouble, nor do I see her openly proselytising. Since she has drawn that conclusion for herself and herself alone, I fail to see the issue...
To those that believe in a god; Please help me believe
by AlmostAtheist 83 Replies latest jw friends
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OICU8it2
Hey, almost a, you've been thinking again. Actually, you may never stop thinkin' about this. After the disaster, it made it easier not to believe or to believe something else. I can see how something could come into existence and then change over time with no designer. The thing that keeps me from totally being an atheist or agnostic is the design discussion. In a three dimensional universe, a lot can just happen by itself it seems. Even great odds occur regularly without having to resort to parallel universe scenarios. i.e.- you're here as you are. What are the odds for that? 200 million to one times itself for every conception leading to you plus all the other mitigating factors thrown in. Those odds still are not even close to those that led to a universe with us in it. You could have space and matter occur as a quantum fluctuation but even that requires an initial set of statutes. I don't know, I see no evidence from the Bible (who determined what books were in the canon?) If one is spared from some catostrophe after prayer, what happenned to the rest that prayed and died? That's all chance. Sometimes I wonder if there have not been competing superior forces (intelligent) at work in the universe and especially historically on earth all vieing to be called the creator. Mortality bothers me a lot. I see consciousness as the work of pure physical connections in the brain or perhaps even fields in the brain. We are what we percieve and have learned to percieve and remember about ourself. Lose any small part of that part of the brain and you are different at once. When your cells can no longer divide (telomere reduction?) or pathology or time and unforseen occurence takes your life, you are permanently gone. Other than any genetic legacy left behind, it is as it was before you were concieved. I see no evidence of a soul and it doesn't make sense anyway. I can see how one's mental patterns could be saved and then restored but that (to me) is not a resurrection, it is a recreation. After all what would it be like if the original was not destroyed? Thinking through that discussion leads to the obvious. So, I think this is it. It is no big tragedy if this is all there is. After all, it was no big tragedy before you existed. Is it futile?
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logansrun
And, does anyone actually believe that atheists/agnostics really want to not believe? I can understand that some may say they do not want to believe in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God because of the rather harsh moral code they would have to then adhere to. But, one could always believe in the now-popular "Sensitive New Age God" that requires little more than faith (gullibility + desire?).
I personally just haven't seen any evidence, or anything even approaching evidence. I've tried. I've even prayed. I've rented books and cassettes promoting the "scientific" evidence supporting the efficacy of prayer. I was greatly dissappointed at both my personal experience with prayer (nothing happened) as well as the studies conducted (mostly by physician Larry Dossey -- his research was long on speculation, incredibly short on findings).
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a militant unbeliever. I see much advantage in some of the philosophies of the great religions -- Christianity and Buddhism in particular. It doesn't "offend" me to see a believer (as it used to, I admit). Nonetheless, I just strongly suspect that faith is nothing more than wish-fulfillment. Oh well.
Bradley
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mouthy
I can understand your unbelief!!! I believe in a Creator ! whom I believe is Jesus Christ.
Can I help you believe ? No I dont think so. I believe it is the work of the HOLY SPIRIT. I felt like you after being ousted from the WT. After being suicidel! People came into my life that kept talking about Jesus -they drove me nuts!!!! After all I had learned the "troof" from men!!!!(The WT)
Then I started to listen to no man at all. but I did start praying "if your there God! let me know!" well he did - I heard about other JW attending a convention -I went with the help of people..... There I witnessed LOVE!!!! Not all were believers, not all Christians, not all healthy in mind & body- but there was Love & sharing.... True sharing!!!!( as you are doing)
I then asked Jesus Christ to come into my heart!!!!Because I had always thougt Jesus= Love!!!
I know HE is LORD of my life because while my children was dying (cancer!& diabetis!)I would not have had the strength to care for them, I asked & I received. You may say did I ask for their lives to be spared? Yes hundreds of times !! The answer was NO! I fought with the LORD over that- but after all the years since their death!! I know my daughter would not have been able to take what her kids ( whom she adored -as do I) have been up to--- drinking, drugs, babies, etc: etc: they also dont believe in anything.
Now since all the tradgies of Indonesia , & others, I can understand disbelief. But I still look out my window & see wonderful colored birds, my 11 little Great Grandchildren- the love of friends, those seen & those unseen ( on here) Hang in there friend. I do hope you find what I have... ((hug))
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logansrun
Little Toe,
My, you're really putting a lot of words in my mouth in this thread. First you insinuate that I believed Occam's Razor was "infallible" and now you insinuate that I believe Sheila's believing makes her a "bad person"! Where oh where did I say any of this?
That's all right. I forgive you.
Bradley
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LittleToe
Methinks the lady protests too much.
S'ok, Bradley, I forgive you, too -
Xena
There is a reason it's called "faith" Bradley. If you could prove it then it would be called something else
I rarely discuss my personal beliefs because they are just that...personal. I have no need to convince others of what I do or do not believe, nor do I feel the need to justify or prove my personal beliefs. Anymore then I have to prove the people in my life love me. Any "proof" I might offer of that love is ultimately based on my own perception of love and could no doubt be proven wrong by someone with a different perception.
Sorry I can't be more help....to me it seems to be a personal journey everyone has to take and we all find our own different and unique paths.
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logansrun
You know, I often heard it said that faith is a "personal journey" and is really, in essence, "private." Well, isn't that rather true of everything in life? Falling in love is a "personal journey" as well -- even though it is with another person your feelings are completely yours.
Sometimes people use this "private journey" argument as if one may just as well believe whatever-the-hell they like and that's noble and good and just peachy. Well, I have no real beef with that as long as they don't hurt anyone else (which, I might add, is often rare). Nonetheless, shouldn't something as important as the very nature of existence and your eternal future be more than just the wild personal dreamings that go on in your brain? Shouldn't it be a dialogue?
Important things are better off scrutinized more, not less.
Bradley
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Tigerman
Dave,
I have always believed in God and considered myself a Christian, however, I 'm not writing this to convince you as to why I believe the way I do. Rather, I'd like to relate an experience that happened to me twenty-five years ago, and hopefully it will help you in your quest.
I was with some people and we were partying heavy ( lots of booze and drugs ). I got into a fight with a guy there and I hurt him pretty bad. He got ahold of a 357 Magnum, came back into the room where I was and faced me. He was no more than three feet away from me when he pulled the gun and shot me in the gut. The power of the bullet shooting through me knocked me to the floor. I wasn't wearing a shirt at the time so I could easily see the hole in my belly and knew, without a doubt, my time was up. But the sense of not living any longer was so odd and strange. After all, no one lives after being gut shot at point blank range with a 357. The man that shot me ran out of the apartment; my girfriend called for an ambulance.
Knowing that I was going to die I tried to make peace with God, for the sake of my soul. And, this is the hard part to write . . .knowing I was going to die I asked God to forgive the man that shot me. I didn't want him to be accused of being a killer in the eyes of God. I will always believe that was the reason God spared my life.
And, there is no reasonable explaination why the bullet entered my body where it did and then exited where it did; for it to have done so would mean that the gun would have had to be fired from a height of six feet or so . . .it was fired from waist high.
I believe I would not be here now if I had not asked God to forgive the man. Please, you must understand I am not a religous man( I am spiritual ) and have done a lot of bad things in my life, but God saw that I had faith in Him and my plea to God to forgive him came from the heart.
I think these kinds of things happen all the time all over the world; scientifically inexplicable in every way. Some would call them miracles. Whatever tag one uses really doesn't matter . . .they all came from a force outside man's understanding.
God is a living mystery . . .and He loves you.
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logansrun
Xena,
In reality nothing is "proven" with the possible exception of deductive logic and some math. Beliefs are best held on a continuum from "almost assuredly not true" to "extraordinarly probable." Where does belief in a God or spiritual realm lie?
Bradley *tip toes away*