Definition of an "Apostate"?

by upside/down 17 Replies latest jw experiences

upside/down

What are the ancient words translated into English "apostate", from da Bible? And what are their actual definitions and compare this to the WTS definitions? I'm sure there will be some discrepencies. Try to avoid being biased, just give KNOWN def's. Let the reader use his own discernment, in the sake of fairness to the actual texts.
IMO from what I read the teachings of Jesus seem to go completely counter to ANY man-made organized religious concept. His teachings do not need organized religion in order to be implemented. And by the way is "organized religion" an oxymoron?
It seems to me to be role reversal- they are the apostates, not us! Da Bible actually tells us to question all teachings and to test them out- How can that be done if the WTS chews, swallows and digests all manner of spiritual food for us? When did we abdicate our spirituality to another group or elitist "priveliged" men. Isn't this exactly what Jesus warned about? (Blind lead blind both fall into pit!) They have deviated and created a "name brand religion". Wasn't Jesus considered an "apostate" by the religious leaders of his day. Weren't the religious "leaders" the ONLY people he condemned? Faith isn't blind- yet that is exactly what Dub doctrine calls for. Otherwise why do they get so "bent" when anyone even so much as asks the "wrong question" or disagrees or asks for the "biblical" proof for cerain Dub ways. (ie. counting time, mandatory meetings, little to no education, wedding traditions straight from the "pagan" hand book, no beards etc.)?
STill thinking...
U/D
FairMind

Those that disagree with the WTS' teachings are by definition apostates. The following is from http://www.apologeticsindex.org/a67.html "An apostate is someone who abandons a previous loyalty (to a faith, movement, politcal party, etcetera).
Cult defenders such as Massimo Introvigne, J. Gordon Melton, Lonnie Kliever, et. al., attempt to discredit the testimomy of apostates.
However:

Recent and less recent NRM catastrophes help us realize that in every single case allegations by hostile outsiders and detractors have been closer to reality than any other accounts. Ever since the Jonestown tragedy, statements by ex-members turned out to be more accurate than those of apologists and NRM researchers. The reality revealed in the cases of People's Temple, Rajneesh International, Vajradhatu, the Nation of Yahweh, the Branch Davidians, the Faith Assembly, Aum Shinrykio, the Solar Temple, or Heaven's Gate is much more than unattractive; it is positively horrifying. In every case of NRM disasters over the past 50 years, starting with Krishna Venta (Beit-Hallahmi, 1993), we encounter a hidden world of madness and exploitation in a totalitarian, psychotic, group, whose reality is actually even worse than detractors' allegations." Also according to dictionaryreference.com
apostate
adj : not faithful to religion or party or cause n : a disloyal person who betrays or deserts his cause or religion or political party or friend etc. [syn: deserter, renegade, turncoat, recreant, ratter]
Hope this helps
FM
Narkissos

Hello Upside/Down,
"Apostate" is actually the transliteration of Greek apostatès, which does not occur in the NT.
In the N.T. the related noun apostasia (apostasy) occurs twice:
- Acts 21:21:
They (the Judeo-Christians) have been told about you (Paul) that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake (lit. "apostasy from") Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:3:
Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion (apostasy) comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.
The related verb aphistèmi occurs a number of times, some of which are theologically significant:
- Luke 8:13:
The ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe only for a while and in a time of testing fall away.
- Acts 5:37:
After him Judas the Galilean rose up at the time of the census and got people to follow him (lit. drew away [apestèsen] people after him) ; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered.
- Acts 15:38:
Paul decided not to take with them one (Mark) who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not accompanied them in the work.
- Acts 19:9:
When some (Jews) stubbornly refused to believe and spoke evil of the Way before the congregation, he (Paul) left them, taking the disciples with him, and argued daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
- 1 Timothy 4:1:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will renounce the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons
- Hebrews 3:12:
Take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
All above quotes from the NRSV. Hope the variety of renderings helps to gather the semantic range. It's quite interesting that the same word describes the attitude of early (esp. Pauline) Christians towards Judaism as well as the attitude of (supposed) Christian dissidents towards the (supposed) "right" Christian teaching or practice.
upside/down

So if I were to "split hairs", then I guess I actually became "apostate" when I left the Cathlic church to become a Dub, right? Anytime a change is made one could be said to be "apostate". Great- we're all apostates!
So what "thought" did the writer's of Scripture intend since "apostasy" is given a forthrightly negative conotation? They must have meant SOMETHING, or why even address it? It appears the WTS has made a HUGE doctrinal issue on something that is given relatively little "page time" in Scripture- kind of like BLOOD.
More straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel smegma!
Thanks for the involved responses...
u/d
pepheuga

the definition contained at the bottom of the post from "fairchild" nicely illustrates the murkiness surrounding this word. the greek word "apostasia", a later form of the root word "apostasis" appears twice in the new testament, and denotes not a kind of person, nor an act of doing something, but rather a kind af condition, namely that of having been seperated from a thing (a belief, political party etc.), and of now standing, settled, away from it.
this word ought not neccessarily to be a pejorative term, but we might reflect that the word is often used as an slur - and always has been, unfortunately.
pepheuga
Narkissos

I guess I actually became "apostate" when I left the Cathlic church to become a Dub, right? Anytime a change is made one could be said to be "apostate". Great- we're all apostates!

Agreed.
So what "thought" did the writer's of Scripture intend since "apostasy" is given a forthrightly negative conotation? They must have meant SOMETHING, or why even address it?
I guess in the post-Pauline texts (2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy) and possibly Luke the terms already imply a sort of "orthodoxy" from which some "fall away". Of course this is only meaningful from the standpoint of this orthodoxy. The "apostates" considered themselves as fully Christian, if not the only true Christians... endless story.
VM44

The Watchtower is very specific about apostacy. The elder's manual, "Pay Attention to Yourselves and All the Flock" states:
Apostasy includes action taken against true worship of Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated people. Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates.
Who determines what the "true worship of Jehovah" is? The Watchtower Corporation!
Who determines what "Jehovah's established order among is dedicated people" is? The Watchtower Corporation!
and, who determines what "Bible truth" is? The Watchtower Corporation!
It does NOT matter if the Watchtower teachings are true or not. Watcthower doctrines and teachings are THE TRUTH by definition!
Thus when individuals try to present facts they have found by their own research to the elders showing the error of certain Watchtower beliefs, the individual will fail everytime! They miss the point of what is involved being a Jehovah's Witness. Actual truth is not the issue, what the elders (and the Watchtower Corporation) only care about is that people follow everything they are taught to believe, without question! The elders in the local congregations are more akin to managers or policemen to insure that the congregations hold to the doctrines and beliefs handed down from the central authority!
--VM44
JustTickledPink

I love that quote "teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates."
So if you are going against Bible truth, you aren't apostate, just Bible truth AS TAUGHT by JWs. hahhahaaa...
Really what they are saying is, anything that is against what they teach.
upside/down

So the WTS is acting EXACTLY as the "old school" Catholic Church-
Then) The earth is flat because WE say so, and if you don't agree WE'VE got a rack with your name on it. But I just learned some new math (geometry with trig) and I beg to differ, I think there is a curve to the earths surface, perhaps it's even a sphere! What did you say? Boys show this guy the rack.
Now) The end will come within a "generation" of 1914, because WE say so, and if you dissent WE will shun or DF you. But it didn't happen and now it can't happen, perhaps YOU were in error. What did you say? Boys show this guy the door.
Man continues to dominate man to all of our injury!
u/d
sistaintheback

I found this definition of apostate:
\A*pos"tate\, 1. One who has forsaken the faith, principles, or party, to which he before adhered; esp., one who has forsaken his religion for another; a renegade, faithless to moral allegiance.

I remember back when I was a teenager, the 'apostates' use to show up at District assemblies and try to disrupt them. They would try to charge the brother on the stage. Scream, yell and heckle during the talks. Then we would come out and there would be flyers all over our cars and they would walk up and try to talk to us. Some of them did look a little scary. Like they would be wearing long hot trench coats and it would be August. What was the deal with all of that stuff? This was the kind of behavior that made some ex-jw's seem demon possessed. Have any of you ever participated in this kind of thing?

I don't like the word apostate. It sounds so nasty and deranged. I can picture myself telling my family that I no longer want to be a part of an organization that I don't believe in. But I could never say I've decided to become an apostate. My mother would have a conniption fit!

Sista

Definition of an "Apostate"?

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