I don't understand this

by embeth2525 64 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    CF- Highly complex languages that many linguists say surpassed modern language in it's ability to convey thought and feeling much more precisely, for one.

    No linguists I know of would think that....

    And on the other question, there clearly were a multiplicity of languages across the earth for many, many millenia -- long before the cities in Mesopotamia were built. Just within the Mesopotamian context, during the third millenium BC, there was a coexistence of Sumerian and Akkadian (and Sumerian was preceded by Ubaidian, which furnished the non-Sumerian place names), and the Akkadians and Sumerians were in contact with speakers of Elamite (a language isolate), Hittite (an Indo-European language, descended from a still earlier Proto-Indo-European), West Semitic (as represented occasionally in the Ebla texts), among others....

    There is no linguistic evidence of a single original language, much less one that existed as recent as the third millenium BC....

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Sabrina,

    From a linguistic viewpoint, the "royal we" (as in "we are not amused") is different from the inclusive address to a royal court. The former implies one subject, the latter implies several. Afaik the "royal we" or "majesty plural" is not attested in Biblical Hebrew.

    Of course "the assembly of the gods" came to be understood as the "royal court of God" when official Judaism shifted to monotheism. And the suppressed "gods" came back as "angels". This is apparent when you compare the Hebrew text with the Greek Septuagint. E.g. Psalm 97:7 "all gods bow down before him" becomes in Greek (96:7) "all his angels bow down to (or worship) him". One can hardly escape the polytheistic background of Jewish monotheism.

  • Pole
    Pole

    USD,

    CF- Highly complex languages that many linguists say surpassed modern language in it's ability to convey thought and feeling much more precisely, for one.

    I'm not sure how exactly this can be proved. The only evidence that comes to my mind is connected to the phonological, morphological and syntactic complexity of ancient languages. It's true that almost universally languages have dropped cases, inflections and even phonemes more often than they "introduced" new ones. Whether this means that ancient languages were more precise than modern ones is highly questionable, however. Polish has seven cases for nouns, whereas English has (at best) only two. Does that make Polish "surpass" English in any respect?

    Many aspects of the grammars of "exotic" languages of Native Americans are much more complex than the lingo of German philosophers. Does that make Native American thinkers better than German ones?

    Leolaia,

    There is no linguistic evidence of a single original language, much less one that existed as recent as the third millenium BC....

    That's true. Diachronic comparative etymology (tracing back the origin words from different language to the same proto-language) only makes sense within a number of unrelated major language families, some of which you mention.

    Another thing is that this is how some Flood apologists explain the fact that there are only a few historically separate language families. They say God made them up from scratch at Babel and from then on they developed naturally into the many different historically related languages we know today.

    This of course doesn't make any sense if you seriously consider the timescale given in the Bible though and the rest of the Genesis stories. Anyway I did enjoy this hypothesis as a JW.

    Pole

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Narkissos,

    Are you saying you believe the OT is not based on monotheism but polytheism? If so, leaving out the linguistic analyses for a bit, what in the OT leads you to such a conclusion? I'm truly interested in your opinions on this.

    Thank you,

    Sabrina

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I think the shift from polytheism to monotheism is embedded into the text of the OT. Historically it most likely followed a stage of henotheism or monolatry (meaning, "there are many gods but only one of them is to be worshipped", cf. Deuteronomy). Pure monotheism (there is only one God) emerged at the time of the exile, with 2nd Isaiah (Is. 40-55), which does not mean that it was universally accepted in Israel nor even in Judah immediately after the exile.

    The result is that the older strata or fragments of the most ancient traditions imply polytheism, whereas the final edition of the texts implies monotheism -- and there is some tension between them.

    For instance, the original phrasing (as can be reconstructed from a comparison of the Hebrew masoretic text and the Greek Septuagint) of Deuteronomy 32:8f reads:

    When the Most High (Elyôn, title of the supreme god El) apportioned the nations,
    when he divided humankind,
    he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
    according to the number of the gods;
    Yhwh's own portion was his people,
    Jacob his allotted share.

    Yhwh is a god among many, he receives Israel/Jacob as his share from the hands of his father El. To each god his people and its territory. This conception is apparent in several places, e.g. Judges 11:24 (territorial negotiation between Jephtah and the Ammonites/Moabites, whose god was Chemosh):

    Should you not possess what your god Chemosh gives you to possess? And should we not be the ones to possess everything that Yhwh our god has conquered for our benefit?

    This is apparent in many texts, for instance the story of David or Ruth: moving to another country implies "serving" other gods. Only the exile will change this religious perspective.

    Of course the old polytheistic viewpoint is obscured by the general setting of the later monotheistic edition (not to mention the capital ascribed to only one of the nonetheless similar gods in the English versions). Still it shows in many many places.

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Narkissos,

    For instance, the original phrasing (as can be reconstructed from a comparison of the Hebrew masoretic text and the Greek Septuagint) of Deuteronomy 32:8f reads:

    When the Most High (Elyôn, title of the supreme god El) apportioned the nations,
    when he divided humankind,
    he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
    according to the number of the gods;
    Yhwh's own portion was his people,
    Jacob his allotted share.

    If possible, could you please provide those comparison Hebrew masoretic and Greek Septuagint texts of Deuteronomy 32:8 here?

    Thanks again,

    Sabrina

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Sorry guys, try and "hear" what I'm saying and don't try and drag me into a quagmire of opinion and unproveable history.

    I NEVER said there was one original language- Where did you get that? All I said is that we don't find "primitive" simplistic ancient languages, rather fully developed all encompassing vocabularies that are able to convey the full range of thought and emotion. This of course tends to support the idea that a "God" made man originally with the ability for verbally expressing himself both literally and on paper (or pottry or cave wall, whatever)

    Take the proverbial "chip off the shoulder", and please don't try and read into what's written, it exposes a strong "bias", for your point of view, which is just as valid/invalid as anyones. I'm merely trying to contribute and I do have an opinion- I just tend to get very defensive with overly "intellectual" or "religious" types (that's my bias), maybe I'm just raw still from dealing with the Dub's- I don't know.

    Anyway, I do enjoy these volly's (even if heated at times), it's much more refreshing than when I was in the bOrg.

    Peace,

    u/d

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    MT:

    When Elyôn apportioned the nations,
    when he divided the sons of man ('adam),
    he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
    according to the number of the sons of Israel (bene yisrael)
    Yhwh's own portion was his people,
    Jacob his allotted share.

    LXX:

    When the Most High divided the nations,
    when he scattered the sons of Adam,
    he fixed the boundaries of the nations
    according to the number of the angels of God (aggelôn theou)
    the Lord's own portion was his people,
    Jacob his allotted share.
    The discrepancy between those two readings points to an original (polytheistic) bene 'el, sons of El, which has been confirmed by a Qumran manuscript. It was logically "translated" by the monotheistic LXX as "angels of God" (cf. my previous post), and later corrupted by the rabbinical-masoretic Hebrew tradition into an obscure "sons of Israel".
  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    Men decided to make (clay) men hard - firing them (burning desire) and binding them together with a thick dark way that was beneath them. Hence they would think and speak the same and together help to make those higher like God - higher than a flood of water from heaven (whoever drinks the water that I shall give...) In our spirit we know it is appropriate to scatter them and confuse (debunk) their spiritual language. Remind you of any groups in particular? "All scripture is good for teaching"

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Narkissos,

    The discrepancy between those two readings points to an original (polytheistic) bene 'el, sons of El, which has been confirmed by a Qumran manuscript.

    And please, what did that Qumran manuscript say?

    Sabrina

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