Sincere doubt on the Sovereign issue

by Sincere Inquirer 15 Replies latest jw friends

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  Sincere Inquirer

  Hello all!

  This is the first time I post to this forum in order to find new ideas about a doubt that has been torturing me. No one in my congregation was capable of providing me with a reasonable explanation, and the Society did not answered my letter about this sincere doubt of mine. So, any help will be appreciated!

  I will try to be concise...

  You all know that we have been taught that Jehovah allowed a
  considerable amount of time (6,000 years) for Men to try every single type of Government - without God's help or intervention - to prove that Men cannot suitably rule themselves apart of God. See the brochure 'Does God Really Care About Us? - dg1992 part 6 - paragraphs 4-7.

  Unfortunately, I've found a conflict between this and what the Bible shows Jehovah did.

  Carefully read the Bible in Genesis 11:1-9. Pay special attention to the end of verse 6, which more or less says:
  'Look, nothing that they wish to do will be unreachable to them!' Sorry, I don't have our New World Translation at hand now...

  Couldn't this 'nothing that they wish to do will be unreachable' reasonably include 'suitably ruling themselves apart from God'?

  Satan could reasonably complain that Jehovah did interfered with the form of Government that the Mankind was trying to build up RIGHT FROM ITS BEGINNING.

  The further 6,000 years claimed to be 'reasonable amount of time' for solving the Government issue, in fact, were spoiled by the separation of the Mankind into different languages and, consequently, religions. You know that these two factors are the biggest barriers to the unity of Mankind.

  What would have happened to Men if Jehovah did not interfere back there in Babel? We will never know.

  Some brothers have argued that life under Nimrod's rule would have been horrible with his love to kill for fun. But this is not a valid argument because the existence of Mankind was not threatened. Nimrod was killing thousands. What about the millions killed in the World War I and II? And this is not really the point. The point is that Jehovah should not have intervened in any way, otherwise the 6,000 years period are invalidated.

  Other brothers say that 'Jehovah does things at His own time because 6,000 years is 'just like past yesterday', and we creatures must obey and trust Him in His decisions.

  So, in this case we are forced to conclude that Jehovah preferred to allow His human sons to suffer during a period of time that FOR HIM is short, but that it is so long for His creatures (let's not forget the suffering of the animals).

  Isn't Jehovah intelligent enough to find out another "solution" for the Sovereign issue?
  Wouldn't His supreme LOVE demand for an alternative solution?
  Do you think was it fair to "give credit" to the questionings of evil Satan by allowing 6,000 years of desgrace for so many
  innocents? Just to prove it for real? Why such a need? Isn't the meaning of God's name 'I am what I am?'

  If we have to accept the designations of Jehovah because He has the rights for that, why wasn't the same behavior demanded from Satan and the other rebels in the beginning?

  At Eden, Jehovah could easily show to all involved a sort
  of "Photodrama of the Future Without God's Government".

  To all good wise ones, seeing those images of starving children, bloody wars, horrible diseases, extreme pollution, nuclear explosions, to mention just a few, would be quite enough to outcry: "Jehovah is the true God, and He deserves to rule! Death to the rebels without delay! No need to wait for the Armagedom time! The Mankind does not need to suffer all these things for real!"

  And, then, Jehovah would really be known as LOVE. But, unfortunately, being things like we see today in the whole world, I can hardly say that Jehovah has showed empathy concerning His innocent creatures.

  So, I hope you understand what I want to say above. Please, help me to solve these horrible doubts that are tormenting my sincere heart. Most probably I am missing some important point that, unfortunately, no one was able to show me so far.

  You may post your message here or sending an e-mail to [email protected]

  Thanks in advance for all your help.

  Sincere Inquirer
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  Billygoat

  Interested in seeing if anybody else missed this...I don't have anything to add.

  Although, Sincere...you'll find many more things that differ from WTS and the Bible. MANY more...just be patient and see what you learn here for a day or so.

  Billygoat
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  You Know

  George Orwell once wrote that the future of mankind resembles a human face with the imprint of a boot stamped on it. Apparently that is also the future that Jehovah envisioned for the race, which is why Jehovah God erected certain bulwarks to thwart the sort absolute totalitarian tyranny that we have glimpsed from time to time in Communism and Nazism. For one thing, Jehovah has never abdicated his sovereignty. After the flood God issued the command to all men to spread out and fill the earth. Satan, it appears, wanted to collect people together under a dictatorial regime. By Jehovah's confusing the language of mankind he prevented, or at least delayed, the subjugation of all mankind under an imperial form of tyranny. As bad as competing national institutions have been in fomenting wars, at least they present some sort of checks and balances against absolutist rule. No doubt, had God allowed mankind to continue under Nimrod, in time there would have been such a tyrannical system in place that life on earth would have been a total nightmare.

  As it stands presently, the language barrier has for the most part been surmounted by the nations. Thus, predictably, we see once again the irresistible impulse toward totalitarianism reflected in the relentless move toward globalism and the dismantling of the nation state system with the intent to eventually abolish national sovereignties altogether. The Scriptures of course allow for that to occur at the finale. So Jehovah's confusing of the tongues of mankind merely acted as a delaying tactic until such time as his work is done. Then, when it's time, God will allow Satan his little global empire so as to get it on in the last showdown. No doubt the tribulation will be a nightmarish genocidal holocaust without equal. / You Know
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  gsark

  I don't see how mankind could accomplish any kind of governmental system, God-free or not, if he did not exist to do so. Without intervention from God, all life likely would have been ended if not for the Flood (so it implies). Nimrod comes across to me as being a charismatic megalomaniac intent on destroying all human life except his immediate family (if he would even stop there), so God stepped in to preserve mankind then. Who knows how many times (recorded or unrecorded) God has stepped in to prevent Satan from carrying out a 'rule or ruin' policy?

  It really doesn't seem fair to me that Satan can cause mankind to wipe himself off the face of the earth and then claim the victory regarding the sovereignty issue by default, hey?

  Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
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  messenger

  Thinking is a bitch when you look at issues such as this. If you try and apply the WT theology you will keep drawing blanks. The sovrenty issue makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Let's see God wanted to make a point, when Satan tricked Eve and got her to eat of the fruit, then God punishes man and Satan gets a six thousand year party to prove his point. That is like saying if you are a passenger in a car and the driver breaks the speed limit, you get the death penalty, he gets a new car. How is that for fair?

  The only way to look at this is to reject what religion trys to get you to believe about God and THINK! When you do this you lose the guilt and all the other crap these rightous nuts have thought up. Live each day for all it is worth, help your fellow man to the best of your ability and if God has a greater plan I am sure he will want people like you instead of self rightous, born again, santimonious, God in my corner, turd heads.
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  You Know

  Let's see God wanted to make a point, when Satan tricked Eve and got her to eat of the fruit, then God punishes man and Satan gets a six thousand year party to prove his point.

  Obviously you haven't really thought this through as you might have deluded yourself into imagining. If God had not allowed Satan that period of time you wouldn't even have been born. God has been more than fair in allowing wicked and emptyheaded individuals to exist on his planet. / You Know
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  Simon

  I agree Sincere Inquirer

  The claim that is is some sort of 'court case' is rediculous as Jehovah has interfered at every step of the way. What causes all the wars and divisions now... nationalism cause by... dividing of people up at Babel caused by... Jehovah.

  He hasn't give anyone anything like a fair chance if you believe the accounts in the bible and the interpretation of the WTS
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  cnn77

  Messenger wrote:

  "The only way to look at this is to reject what religion trys to get you to believe about God and THINK! When you do this you lose the guilt and all the other crap these rightous nuts have thought up. Live each day for all it is worth, help your fellow man to the best of your ability and if God has a greater plan I am sure he will want people like you instead of self rightous, born again, santimonious, God in my corner, turd heads"

  Wonderful point. I have personally been through this issue also and have no faith in the rest of "Christian" doctrine as a result. I sat around feeling guilty for years as I thought I had a lack of faith and I lacked appreciation and so I beat myself up over it again and again. Then I posted a similar question on this site and I saw - Iwasn't the only person who couldn't see it.

  Sincere Inquirer wrote: "This is the first time I post to this forum in order to find new ideas about a doubt that has been torturing me. "

  I know exactly what you are going through SI. I would like to tell you not to beat yourself up over it but I know thats easier said than done because you have likely been in the truth for many years and the "Truth" is now your life......think friends, family, invested time when I say that.

  All I can say is that Messenger is correct as I see it. THINKING is what got you into this state of torture. You will start saying that one should not be allowed to think.....I been there. But THINK and start to SEE that your thoughts are correct. If you can accept that your thoughts are correct - because the other stuff truly makes no sense at all then you will no longer feel guilty. Freedom from the guilt associated with doubt has been one of the most wonderful freedoms I have ever had - all in the last month. I would recommend that you take a look at some of the stuff AlanF has written on this very issue. It can be found at http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm
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  hippikon

  Many times I have thought along similar lines. Either God gets involved or he doesn’t. For my part I can't understand why God would answer stupid prayers to help some idiot go out on the "Field Service" yet not be interested 2/3 of the worlds starving.
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  Sunbeam

  Hi SI

  You said:

  You all know that we have been taught that Jehovah allowed a considerable amount of time (6,000 years) for Men to try every single type of Government - without God's help or intervention - to prove that Men cannot suitably rule themselves apart of God. See the brochure 'Does God Really Care About Us? - dg1992 part 6 - paragraphs 4-7.

  Can you tell us where this appears in the bible, as it doesn't sound familiar to me. I've found that, when you really look into them, most of the WT's major doctrines aren't actually substantiated by the bible. In fact, they often teach exactly the opposite - e.g. you have to make yourself good enough to earn salvation vs. accepting by faith that Jesus has already paid the full price on your behalf.

  Love
  Sunbeam
  xxx

  PS I've been born again, but I don't think I fit Messenger's description. Christians know that they aren't better than anyone else, in fact they know that they are so far from what God wants us to be that their only hope is for forgiveness. This should make them extremely humble and anyone who acts self-righteous and sanctimonious has totally misunderstood the message of the cross.