You know. This is a subject which I have also thought about often, for it seems strange that scenario in which man is supposed to try to do things on his own has a superhuman spirit creature called Satan and millions of his demon hordes raking havoc for man's efforts. This does not seem fair to me it's like giving somebody a task to do but allowing somebody else to continually interfere with their efforts, this is not any proof whatsoever that that person may have been able to accomplish task unhindered or not.
The real question of whether man could manage on his own or not goes completely unanswered because a lot of the evil in the world can be put down to the interference of evil superhuman spirit creatures so the question is how would man have managed without this interference it does seem strange the and does not make complete sense the Witness interpretation of a court case scene.
Sincere doubt on the Sovereign issue
by Sincere Inquirer 15 Replies latest jw friends
-
cornish
-
Moxy
this is a good question. i never thought of it quite this way. however, questions like this are difficult to resolve since no matter what you say, you will always come up against the counter-argument 'you can't question the way jehovah does things.' he has the right to do as he wishes and the wisdom to see the best way.
so, you say, babel invalidates the sovereignty test?
babel fomented the nationalism that has caused so much war.
nimrod wouldve destroyed the human race early on if not for Jehovah's intervention?well, whos to say? no one can establish any of it and if you assume only jehovah could know, you have to trust that he made the right decision.
no doubt Sincere, this is basically the kind of answer you get when you discuss this with other witnesses. in fact the most compelling argument ive heard along these lines is this: how can jehovah be testing humans ability to rule themselves if he clearly knows that in fact satan is ruling the world and influencing the test unfairly. think that one through and you will find it hard to counter, except with the threadbare 'mustn't question jehovah' argument, for which, of course, there is no real response available.
since these questions never seem to resolve satisfactorily, i felt that a set of more pertinent and fundamental questions were:
did the babel account really take place?
whats this business with the 'plains of shinar' proving the babel story - how compelling is this evidence?
did the flood take place?
how did the genesis account come to be written?
is genesis factual?
if, Sincere, you can preserve your intellectual honesty intact, who will likely feel compelled to continue asking these types of questions and finding answers wherever a merit-based search for truth takes you.mox
-
Yerusalyim
My dear Sincere Inquirer,
Your doubts, my friend, are justified. The Society starts out with the wrong premise. To PROVE God's soveriegnty that have God doing something that would mark him as not being soveriegn. God, as a soveriegn being, has NOTHING to prove to anyone, human or spirit. Before God even began the creative act, He loved us and knew us, and knew that Satan would fall, that man would sin, that we would struggle with free will, that His Son would have to die for us. God could have chosen ANY form of redemption for us, He chose the one that reflects His love. In saying God KNEW all this would happen does NOT mean that He WILLED man to sin, or that God takes the blame. The sickness and death in the world are our doings. He has provided us an out. Nor does he "destroy" those that do not love Him. Rather, there is a place where after death, if they do not wish to be with Him, they will be allowed to be without Him forever. I believe in an eternal Hell, and that hell is merely the absence of God. The "hellfire" is that emptiness burning within us for fulfillment, and not being able to ever be fulfilled because we reject the ONLY ONE that can fulfill us.
Have a great faith Journey, keep faith in God.
Yerusalyim
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
Sincere Inquirer
Thank you very much to all who helped me in my doubt about the Sovereignty issue. Unfortunately, I will not be able to provide a personal answer to everyone, but I would like you all know that I am very pleased to read your answers that enlighted my mind.
Unfortunately, I did not agree with You know, gsark, and Yerusalyim on their comments. Sorry, people.
The reasons why I did not agree with them have been shown by the other friends like Billygoat and Sunbeam (partially). But I would like to enphasize that messenger, Simon, cnn77, hippikon, cornish, and Moxy were superb on their comments!
These are very pretty close to the way I THINK too!!
So, it seems that apparently we do not have a perfect answer for the meaning of life, who we are, where we are from, and where we are going to... Sad, but it is true. What there is left for us it is just 'wait and see'. Thank you all!
-
sf
Hi "Robert",
According to this page here:
< http://www.infomysteres.com/gvtmondial/gvtmondial.htm
Orwell is ex-Illuminati. Were you aware of this or is it a lie?
Also, please take alook at the great links they have. Of course, you'll have to enter this URL into a translator(< http://babel.altavista.com/tr )(french). Robert, are you an Illuminati? Are you a member of the Bush camp?sKally, "VERY APOSTATE"...NOT a rocket scientist?
-
AlanF
The Watchtower teachings about sovereignty and so forth are easily shown to be nonsense:
All heavenly creatures would obviously have no question that God is soveriegn in the sense of being supremely powerful. That takes care of the "soveriegnty" question. Even the Society admits this.
What about the question of whether mankind is capable of ruling himself? The Supreme Creator of mankind fully knows the capabilities of his creation, and according to the Psalms all of mankind's parts are 'written down', obviously including his capabilities. Thus God must have a sort of "design specification" for mankind. All that he need do to prove to anyone anything about mankind's capabilities is to let them read the design specs. If, as the Society teaches, angels materialized fully functioning human bodies before the Flood, then they certainly could 'read the design specs'. Thus, a practical demonstration would not only be unnecessary, but unjust to the unwilling guinea pigs.
What about the question of God's "right to rule"? This is a nonsensical question and has no meaning where a supremely powerful Creator exists. The will of such a Creator is by definition "right", and whatever he does is by definition "right". Suppose that someone challenges such a Creator -- "Hey God! You did wrong!" Would such a Creator turn tail and run away, leaving the universe in the hands of the challenger? Not likely. If he did, he wouldn't be supreme. Any number of other demonstrations can be made showing that claiming that a Supreme Creator is not supreme in every way is logically inconsistent.
AlanF