Parousia- Is it just me? Has anyone else noticed this?

by upside/down 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    The entire premise of the debate of Christ's "presence" as discussed in Matt24:3 to me makes no sense.

    Here's why: We have to assume by the question asked by the apostles, that they understood the whole "presence" concept, which they didn't. They were merely asking him when "the end" would come, I'm not even sure if they know what "the end" really meant. Like every Jew in that time period, they wondered when the Romans would be done away with and "God" would restore their kingdom literally (and other scriptures show they had a hard time with Jesus concept of a "heavenly" kingdon). As far as "the conclusion of the system of things", what did THEY mean when they said this, I know how the WTS "explains" this, but it doesn't answer the question of what THEY meant.

    Some have stated that it was "divine providence" that they were asking the question, so it could be read in our time with "understanding", but that doesn't fit the context. It was a bunch of normal guys, like you and me around this amazing individual (Jesus) and he was starting to spook them by all this "deep" talk of leaving etc. So they asked a simple question, just like I might have asked.

    Anyone have thought on this, as it's ALWAY bugged me. Or am I just "out there"?

    u/d

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Did I post this in the right category of the forum?

    just curious,

    u/d

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    For one thing, note that in Matthew 24:1-3, the question asked by the disciples directly follows a statement by Jesus declaring that the Temple would be entirely destroyed. In the question of the disciples in v. 3, the author of Matthew lumps together the parousia and the "end of the world" with the destruction of the Temple. The presumption is that the parousia and the "end of the world" would occur at the same time as the destruction of the Temple. This builds on the expectation of many Jews and Christians during the Jewish War of AD 66-70 that the war would lead to the defeat of the Romans and establishment of God's rule.

    However the wording of the question in Matthew 24:3 is not the original one, since Matthew has taken much of his material from Mark (Markan priority), and there the question makes no reference to the parousia and the "end of the world": "Tell us, when is this going to happen [i.e. the destruction of the Temple], and what sign will there be that all this is about to be fulfilled". In response to this question, reference is made to the Jewish War (Mark 13:5-8) as part of the "beginning of the birth pangs," and explicit reference is made to a desecration of the Temple (v. 14) as occurring "in those days" in a time of great distress, but Jesus also mentions that other things were to happen too "in those days, after that time of distress", including cosmic signs (v. 24-25) and the "coming of the Son of Man in the clouds" in v. 26-27. There is no concept of a huge internal of time between the destruction of the Temple and the parousia, as the text explicitly states that "this generation" (that is, the generation of Jews who lived during Jesus' ministry) would not pass away before "all these things will have taken place" (v. 30), and that the time "has been shortened" (v. 20). Yet the end does not occur during the war itself because it is only the "beginning" of the birthpangs and "the end will not be yet" (v. 7), but at the same time the parousia was supposed to occur "in those days" (v. 18, 24). It is generally concluded from these data (along with other clues) that Mark was published very shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem, such as between AD 70-75.

    Matthew, on the other hand, was written some time later, as evidenced by its use of Mark (see the literature for a detailed discussion of this, especially H. Koester's Early Christian Gospels) and various internal clues (I am not proposing any specific date, but the common ones tend to be between AD 80 and 100). By this time, the parousia and end had failed to materialize, and the apparent "delay" was a frequent concern of the sub-apostolic period (cf. James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 3:1-10; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 17-18; Revelation; 1 Clement 23:1-5), and this concern is highly marked in Matthew while absent in Mark. Thus, the author has modified Mark's eschatological discourse by adding a series of parables (Matthew 24:37-25:30) that have as a theme the apparent delay of the parousia (cf. "My master is delaying" in 24:49), the need to stay awake for the later-than-expected arrival of the bridegroom (25:6), and that a period of time would elapse so that the money deposited with the bankers would accrue with interest (25:27). The special interest at the time in the delayed parousia and "end of the world" is thus reflected in the reworking of the disciples' question in 24:3: "Tell us, when is this going to happen [i.e. the destruction of the Temple], and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the world?" What is more, the author also attempts to answer these questions in what are additions to the Markan text. Thus the sign itself is mentioned explicitly in v. 30: "And then (tote) the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven," a phrase absent in either Mark or Luke, and the time of the "end" is specified in v. 14: "This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed to the whole world as a witness to all the nations, and then (tote) the end will come", again a phrase that is absent in the parallel passages in Mark 13:10 and Luke. Luke, on his part, indicates the delay independently in other ways. He leaves the disciples' question from Mark unchanged (cf. Luke 21:7), explicitly indicates that the "signs" will appear "in the sun and moon and stars" (v. 25, Mark does not indicate what are to be "signs," while Matthew refers to the "sign of the Son of Man in heaven"), and inserts a condemnation of those who had said "The time is near at hand" (v. 8) when in fact it wasn't (this phrase is absent in Mark 13:5-6 and Matthew 24:5, 26). Luke also utilizes many of the same eschatological parables as Matthew but inserts them elsewhere in the gospel instead of in the eschatological discourse.

    So in short, the original version of the question related only to the destruction of the Temple and Jesus' answer implicitly linked it with the war and the future parousia and end, whereas Matthew has modified the question to explicitly refer to the parousia and end so that Jesus in his reply could treat these events as well and explain that they are coming soon even though they do not occur at the same time as the Roman destruction of the Temple. That is, Jesus' response is directed to those who, like the disciples asking the question, had lumped together the "end of the world" and parousia with the destruction of the Temple and had expected all three to occur in connected fashion.

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    u/d,

    I don't believe the Gospels are a word for word representation of the discussions Jesus and his disciples had. So for me, it's not what they thought when they asking Jesus about his return but why God saw to it that it be recorded as it was.

    Sabrina

  • Jaypeeto
    Jaypeeto

    No, upside/down, you're not "out there."

    The disciples had no concept whatsoever of the Governing Body's nonsensical 19th century notion of an invisible parousia. This fantasy occured to Russell and the JWs have stuck with it ever since.

    Love, Jaypeeto

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Or, even more simply:

    All the WT hogwash is built on Greek vocabulary, morphology and etymology (the latter being essential to their interpretation of parousia as "presence"). Still Jesus and his disciples were not supposed to speak Greek...

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I have noticed a tendency in the WTS' use of Greek grammar and lexicography to generally prefer the etymological or earliest-attested meaning and to insist (without any clear rationale given) that this meaning is the one relevant to the biblical text. Thus they argue that stauros originally meant "stake" as a sort of proof that the biblical stauros only referred to a stake, ignoring clear evidence that during the Roman period the word had gone on to also refer to Roman crosses. They similarly insist on rendering kolasin/kolazó as "cutting-off" (the literal etymological meaning) when it implies an "eternal punishment," yet elsewhere they render the word as "punishment" when it is not theologically inconvenient (cf. Acts 4:21), and of course they prefer the etymological meaning of parousia to support a two-stage parousia doctrine (as a rationalization of prophetic failure).

    The case of parousia is an interesting one because this verb embraces several different event structures, the basic stative sense (of being "present") and the common sense involving a change of state (of "becoming present," that is, coming and arriving). The WTS insists again on the etymological meaning even though the verb was easily capable of both meanings. In a recent thread on this subject, I posted some quotes from Josephus and the NT which clearly show that stative meaning alone was impossible.

    As for Jesus having originally spoken Aramaic, that's par for the course, but I think the WTS is entitled to interpret the Greek text on its own terms.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    As for Jesus having originally spoken Aramaic, that's par for the course, but I think the WTS is entitled to interpret the Greek text on its own terms.

    Not if they affirm (as they do) that the Gospels are not a Greek literary creation but a faithful rendering of historical events and dialogues in another language. How do you say parousia in Aramaic?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Was paul the greek speaker/writer? If so, then it shows he was the force behind the nt.

    S

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Yes, indeed, we really can only discuss what the text itself (written in Greek for a Greek-speaking audience) says and on its own terms, yet is it possible for a Bible believer who truly believes that the text has preserved Jesus' teaching to side-step the language issue?

    That is to say, would it be a fault for any Christian exegesis to attempt to understand what "Jesus meant" (leaving aside questions of historicity) by examining Greek usage? One can always assume, in the absence of direct evidence to the contrary, that the thought of the text has remained consistent despite translation. The assumption that the text represents an oral Aramaic original may be erroneous (tho I suspect that some of the sayings material may ultimately derive from Aramaic oral tradition), but one could certainly arbitrarily maintain a position -- however unprovable -- that one's chosen gloss for a given Greek word represents a corresponding Aramaic equivalent (in this case, an Aramaic word for "being present," or does such a word not exist?). Or would they need to supply a conjectural retroversion into Aramaic (and justify it) for any gospel passage to discuss what Jesus may have meant (leaving aside, again, the problem of historicity)?

    Of course, we know that translation compromises the meaning of the text, but within the logic of fundamentalist or JW doctrine, they can always appeal to the putative inspiration of the gospel writers as preserving the original message intact. Of course, such inspiration did not prevent the gospel writers from contradicting each other....

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