OK, I HAVE to meet with the judicial committee. Advice?

by AlmostAtheist 66 Replies latest jw friends

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    A business associate of mine gave me some great advice once.

    He said have a micro cassette recorder and after intro and prayer whip that baby out and set it on the table for all to see. Tell them that due to the importance and "life saving" info about to be discussed you wanted to fully understand and be able to review the info presented without the possibility of errors, as notes could have (have a look of being very humbly concerned, while saying this). If this is an arrangement from J and blessed by HS and everyone present is doing the "right" thing- what possible harm could there be? If they say it's a "legal" issue, you can't record it. You say is this a "legal matter?" I thought it was congregational. You mean you will take precautions to "legally" protect yourself and "God's" org., but I can't protect myself? Hmmmmm. Can we say double standard?

    Everyone "behaves", when there is a tape recorder on. Even the @$$hole bro's "lighten up", when being recorded.

    Or better yet record it covertly (not legal) but very incriminating should copies ever "escape" to the congo.

    Ask them politely but firmly to just flat out leave you alone and to respect your wishes and space and that you will do likewise. If they use the "keeping the congo clean" schpeel, tell them that J has legions of angels that are already looking into the matter and show a little faith and "wait on J" to "fix" matters.

    God I'm turning into such a smart-ass!

    u/d

  • FreedomFrog
    FreedomFrog
    thinking that I'd condemned our children to death at Armageddon

    Nina...That is EXACTLY what has been crossing my mind. Though, I've done extensive research and I can defend my position with my life...there's this nagging thing in my head that says "but what IF you ARE wrong". I think it's especially strong BECAUSE I have children.

    FFrog

  • cruzanheart
    cruzanheart

    FF, I know how you feel, but think of this: we have a boy and a girl, and I just couldn't bear the thought of my wonderfully independent daughter growing up to be a meek elder's wife, or my dinosaur-loving son foregoing college to be a janitor. He would do what he thought we wanted him to do but he wouldn't be happy. Jennie would rebel but then feel guilty. Why would I want to inflict that on my children?

    When I walked out of the Kingdom Hall, I thought to myself that if I had to spend forever with these people -- FORGET IT. I'll enjoy every minute of every day that I have and try to make my corner of the world a little better as I do it.

    AND I will trust that the God I was taught about would be loving enough to respect that -- after all, He created my brain, didn't he? Wouldn't He expect me to use it?

    If you have any doubts about whether this is a cult, examine how you feel and then read the definition. It's pretty damn close.

    Oh, and it's been three years and I haven't been hit by a lightning bolt yet.

    Love,

    Nina

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Ff- I know exactly how you feel. here's what will happen no matter what... If you continue to have any association with JW's you will be screaming on the inside as all of the "untruth" is so clear and continues to get even clearer. The day will come when you will be so disgusted, you'll quit anyway- family or not.

    It does a body and mind good to make this as short a period as possible. Unless you enjoy pain and drama (sarc)

    Good luck-

    u/d

  • 2ltl2l8
    2ltl2l8

    Don't know if this will be of any help but here goes. I "left" about 5 yrs ago, was a MS doing an Elders job in many ways when the light went on/out. Anyway do all the things around X-ms now and elders won't stop anymore. Last time they did I met with them with full documentation on the ngo deal which I also sent to bethel certified mail and let the local elders know I did so. When no reply was given back I informed my elders including my dad the service overseer that given the info that if they as a body of elders failed to follow up on the ngo that it would be a form of discrimination to pursue action against my family not to mention hypocritical. Also discrimination could be tried in a court of law, bla bla bla No one stops anymore

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    They are all just big fish in a little pond.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    A tape recorder of some sort is an excellent idea, but it must be hidden. The "Flock" book (the quasi-secret elders manual) specifically states that recordings are not allowed, and experience shows that if a person demands that a recorder be running, the elders will call off the judicial meeting and probably proceed with DF'ing the person -- especially one who has the audacity to flaunt their authority.

    AlanF

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    .... most interesting, the ban on tape recorders; and Caesar's ``wicked" courts have court stenographers, precisely to obviate any possible claims, denials, etc. of statements made during the proceedings. It's intended -- rightly -- as a protection for both parties to any litigation.

  • Jez
    Jez

    I would LOVE to see someone use this fantastic letter that was posted here a while back. Please Please Please????

    To Whom It May Concern,

    I have decided that I will not formally disassociate myself from the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or from Jehovah?s Witnesses in general. I came to this decision for several reasons.
    First, there is nothing I see in the Bible that calls for a formal letter of disassociation in my situation, or any other. It seems to me that the provision of formal disassociation is a matter of convenience for the legal department of the Watchtower Society rather than serving any real religious purpose. It allows people to be pigeon-holed into nice neat little categories rather than dealing with the real issues involved. Also, I have no problem with the P________ Congregation or its members. My disagreement is with certain actions, policies, teachings and writings contained in publications that are produced and in oral teachings promulgated either individually or collectively by the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses and it?s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc. and the International Bible Students Association.

    The purpose of this letter is to clarify certain matters and to secure and protect what I consider basic human rights in dealing with agents of the multinational, multi-billion dollar Watchtower corporations.

    Since you have asked me to appear before a judicial committee to face charges of apostacy, there are a few things that I must ask for and which I feel must be clarified before I will even consider meeting with a judicial committee.

    1. I shall be notified in writing of the time, place and purpose of any meetings with a judicial committee.

    2. I shall be notified in writing of the exact purpose of the meetings.

    3. I shall be notified in writing exactly on whose behalf the judicial committee was convened and is acting: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah?s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

    4. If any other agency other than the one for whom the judicial committee has informed me they are acting for is consulted, reported to, or allowed to have any bearing on the outcome of the judicial process, I will consider the judicial committee as acting in the their behalf.

    5. I shall be notified in writing as to my status as a member of any and all of the organizations for which the committee is acting or to which the committee will report.

    6. I insist that the judicial committee immediately cease, and in the future desist from any actions toward or against me in behalf of any corporation or organization of which I am not a member.

    7. I shall be notified in writing of any accusations against me, the names of persons making such accusations and the substance of any evidence against me.

    8. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the judicial process.

    9. I shall be given sufficient time between notification of any meetings with a judicial committee and the time of the actual meeting to prepare a response to any accusations.

    10. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during all meetings between me and the judicial committee as an observer. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the judicial committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.

    11. During the meetings with the judicial committee I and/or my observer will be allowed to take whatever notes we feel are necessary.

    Additionally, if the judicial committee takes any judicial action against me :

    12. I will not recognize any action taken by the judicial committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.

    13. In this written communication the judicial committee must state exactly on whose behalf they have taken the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah?s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

    14. If the judicial committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the judicial committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies of reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.

    15. I may appeal any action taken by the judicial committee.

    16. Before I will meet with an appeal committee, that committee must notify me in writing of the names of all of the members of the appeal committee and who each one represents: the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah?s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses or it?s legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named

    17. There shall be no contact between the judicial committee and the appeal committee other than to inform them of the time and place of my meetings with them. If I determine that there is any contact, communication or attempt on the part of any of the members of the original judicial committee or anyone acting on their behalf to, in any way prejudice or sway the appeal committee, I will insist that a new appeal committee be formed.

    18. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the appeal process.

    19. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during the all meetings between me and the appeal committee. Since I think there is good reason to believe that the appeal committee may consult with one or more lawyers, specifically those employed by the Legal Department of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Incorporated, the person of my choice may also be a lawyer.

    20. During the meetings with the appeal committee I and/or my observer will take whatever notes we feel are necessary.

    21. I will not recognize any action taken by the appeal committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.

    22. In this written communication the appeal committee must state exactly on whose behalf they are taking the action, specifically the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporation the P________ Company of Jehovah?s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah?s Witnesses or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., the International Bible Students Association or any other agency not here named.

    23. If the appeal committee has stated that it is acting only for the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the appeal committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies or reports to anyone outside the P________ Congregation of Jehovah?s Witnesses, I may take any appropriate legal action.

    24. I understand that if I am disfellowshipped by the judicial committee and the disfellowshipping is upheld by the appeal committee that I am, at that point, no longer considered to be one of Jehovah?s Witnesses. I also understand that it is
    necessary to make a brief announcement that I have been disfellowshipped. From then on, I will consider any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any of Jehovah?s Witnesses to treat me differently from any other person that is not one of Jehovah?s Witnesses to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks or teaching; to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any present Jehovah?s Witnesses to shun or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or terminate or otherwise abrogate any lease, rental, mortgage, or any other legal agreement that I may presently have with them. I may consider such to be an infringement of free trade and may initiate appropriate legal action.

    25. I consider any communication between the members of the judicial committee and myself and the appeal committee and myself to be ecclesiastically privileged. Any attempt to reveal the substance or tone of those communications to any other person or group will be considered by me to be a breach of that privilege and may result in legal action. This includes any announcements beyond the fact of my disfellowshipping, speeches, talks, or any other communication, written or oral, public or private.

    I fully realize that you may be unwilling or that the Watchtower corporations will not allow you to comply with the preceding.

    I respectfully await your written response.

  • Jez
    Jez
    Gina's sister's (a "good" JW) baby is due in about a month and a half and she really wants to be able to hold the baby one time before we're DF'd.

    Yup, my JW brother's wife was pregnant with a little boy. I was never told.

    When they finally had the boy, I thought, "maybe they will tell me now". I was never told.

    The pain of how he treats me like someone that he would never allow his children around, like a murderer, pedophile, kidnapper, etc.....hurts so so much.

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