It realy doesn't matter how you translate Rev. It can't be understood anyway. How many religious leaders agree on the meaning of the words there? If God really cared, don't you think he would have inspired a more understandable message?
Ken P.
The King James Version is Perfect
by blabbermouth 81 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
googlemagoogle
hi inquirer,
believe me, i've read a lot of pseudepigraphal and apocryphal writings. they are not any more crap than the bible. i mean, talking snakes and donkeys... and fruit that makes you live forever and stuff like that. as someone else on this board said before (and i really love that statement): "when you start viewing the bible as what it is, a book of man, not of god, it all makes perfect sense". go read gilgamesh, you'd be surprised.
the historical accounts to prove jesus existance all have problems. in old versions of josephus' antiquitae the "christ" parts are missing. smeels like forgery. and tacitus may have just written what some christian told him.
but that's not the issue. the issue is, even if jesus would have existed, and even if he spoke some of the words written in the canonical gospels, he was a false prophet. his prophecies were never fulfilled. that's the truth. -
inquirer
Well, what about that pseudopigrapha book regarding the "magical Jesus." "Oooh! Look at me! I am the little brat that performs magic tricks!" I think it was in the Gosepl of Thomas... Why do they delibrately pick on his early years? In one particular pseudopigrapha book, the translator noted "in the original manuscript it said Abraham was Jehovah's lover!" I think these books are far more crap than the Bible. Jerome had this same idea as me. I think there is a big difference in quality in these "apocrypha" books (to use a generic term.) Most Christians don't regard them as canonical (those Catholic Church books anyway.) I haven't read them for a while (except that one that said that Abraham was Jehovah's lover [after it said that, I stopped reading it] and so I have forgotten a lot of things (particularly the Gnostic ones) but I just know they are no where near as good as the Bible. You must be someone who doesn't appreciate religious teachings and experiences, that's what it must be... But I still think (might sound like a contradiction, don't care) that some Apocrypha books are ok.
Another thing those gnostic books are pretty weird... I'd rather have talking donkeys anyday. The snake was Satan's mouthpiece. Same with the donkey, he made it speak. ...I think most people with the knowledge of the Bible don't have a problem with that. What about when it says Luke 19:40 40 But in reply he said: ?I tell YOU, If these remained silent, the stones would cry out.? (NWT) That's quite an effective verse! He can get anything to complete his purpose, living or not living as it seems! But, I like these scenarios in the Bible, it's quite effective.
People think what they want about the Bible. One guy wrote in this book (called something like The Bible and Flying Saucers) that Jesus went up in a flying saucer when he went back up the heavens! I had a look... but shucks, I can't find that book... I'd be able to explain it better...
*Josephus writing "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ," means the same thing... I know what you are thinking. But wait. Most people believe the Christian Greek Scriptures were written in Greek (a small minority thought it was Aramaic.) Anyway, my point is, I don't know how Josephus wrote Jehovah's sons' name. Was it like in the Hebrew Scriptures, Jeshua, or Jesus in the Greek? I know they didn't write exactly how it was written, but I mean based on the orignal Greek/Hebrew form. If he had written the Jesus form, that would have made a difference... if you look at it from that point of view anyway. But when you read from the sources (James, the brother of Jesus... & Tacitus said in my other post), it's pretty obvious who they are talking of I would have thought!
False prophet? Prophecies not fulfilled! Have you read the Bible?
Look at what it says in the Knowledge book! page 37: "SOME OUTSTANDING MESSIANIC PROPHECIES
PROPHECY EVENT FULFILLMENT
HIS EARLY LIFE
Isaiah 7:14 Born of a virgin Matthew 1:18-23
Jeremiah 31:15 Babes killed after his birth Matthew 2:16-18
HIS MINISTRY
Isaiah 61:1, 2 His commission from God Luke 4:18-21
Isaiah 9:1, 2 Ministry caused people to Matthew 4:13-16
see a great light
Psalm 69:9 Zealous for Jehovah?s house John 2:13-17
Isaiah 53:1 Not believed in John 12:37, 38
Zechariah 9:9; Entry into Jerusalem on colt Matthew 21:1-9
Psalm 118:26 of an ass; hailed as king
and as the one coming in
Jehovah?s name
HIS BETRAYAL AND DEATH
Psalm 41:9; 109:8 One apostle unfaithful; Acts 1:15-20
betrays Jesus and is
later replaced
Zechariah 11:12 Betrayed for 30 pieces Matthew 26:14, 15
of silver
Psalm 27:12 False witnesses used Matthew 26:59-61
against him
Psalm 22:18 Lots cast for his garments John 19:23, 24
Isaiah 53:12 Numbered with sinners Matthew 27:38
Psalm 22:7, 8 Reviled while dying Mark 15:29-32
Psalm 69:21 Given vinegar Mark 15:23, 36
Isaiah 53:5; Pierced John 19:34, 37
Zechariah 12:10
Isaiah 53:9 Buried with the rich Matthew 27:57-60
Psalm 16:8-11, ftn. Raised before corruption Acts 2:25-32;
13:34-37"
I mean I don't want to go in a philosophical discussion, but with this way of thinking, you can deny anything! Prove that I exist! Prove that you exist! Prove that the Internet exist! Prove the cosmos exists! Can you prove it? No, (as they usually say.) Every thing in these sort of discussions is questions! If I said "you are a bastard" (I don't think you are :) )and you had your ear muffs on... How can I get into trouble? How can you prove it?
Does a tree make a noise if it falls down and there is no body around? ...
I think we are getting puretly philosophical... and I am not sure that I want to start this... Let's just leave it at that. -
googlemagoogle
hi inquirer,
you may have a second look at the pseudepigraphia. the thomas gospel does not contain any info about jesus being a child. what you mean is the childhood proto-gospel of "thomas". btw: most of the bible's writings are pseudepigraphical. there are just a few original pauline letters and the pentateuch was - if at all - only partially written by moses. this is true for most of the other books too.
as for your "prophecies": take moby-dick and you'll find prophecies of you'r life in there if you twist it good enough. the bible contains more pages than moby-dick, it's easy to cut passages out of context and say it's a prophecy. oh, so his bones were not broken? well, if they would have been, they would have found a passage in the bible about broken bones...
you may want to check out the following links:
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
about jesus being a false prophet, just look at the "generation"-issue. or his statement, that he'd return before they'd have evangelized in the jewish cities.
there's nothing philosophical about it - it's just about the fact that the bible aint god's word. doesn't even come close... -
Leolaia
The Bible just happens to directly quote and use apocryphal and pseudepigraphal works. See, for instance:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/85223/1.ashx
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/80498/1.ashx
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/67328/1050144/post.ashx#1050144No firm boundary existed between what would later constitute the "Bible" and extracanonical works while the Bible was being written. The definition and closure of the canon was a gradual process and not a foregone conclusion. If the writers of the Bible themselves did not see a strict boundary between the 66 books that would later constitute the Bible and other "scripture" (indeed, when the canon was being finalized, there were noncanonical books that were still widely as "scripture" and "divinely-inspired," just not authoritative), why should we?
-
inquirer
Hi googlemagoogle,
Yeah, you discredit the Bible. It's up to you. I lack time these days and those weblinks you provided are quite long, when I have time, I'll look them up. Hopefully I can get back to you on that...
This is a pre-comment before I have looked up those web links... but all those prophecies DID happen to Jesus, at least when on paper when you flick through the scriptures it's all there in writing.
When you say the Bible is pseudepigraphical... I think we are just poles apart in our thinking. I don't want to go into that one...
I think I just want to not debate this anymore and just want to: AGREE TO DISAGREE, alright? I'll try to get back to you on those web links you provided, if I can... I probably will still feel the same way as now. Someone posted on here NWT links saying how inaccurate it is... I looked at the web page, and due to my extensive research, I could find fault with what they found fault about. -
inquirer
Leolaia, I'll get back to you on that one if I can.
I just be a strange bloke because I think most of those pseudopigrapha books are poor in quality. Even Jerome thought so. -
googlemagoogle
hi inquirer,
it's ok to disagree, but those prophecies are just not there. just ask a jew why he doesn't think jesus was the messiah.
do a little more research on pseudepigraphic writings. you seem to only know very few of them. i've read that "poor quality" argument in some books about apocrypha, but if you read them for yourself, you'll find out that it's just not true.
and i don't know what's the big deal about jerome. btw he said (and luther repeated) that the catholic deuterocanonica are worth reading and educational. -
inquirer
googlemagoogle --
hi inquirer,
it's ok to disagree, but those prophecies are just not there. just ask a jew why he doesn't think jesus was the messiah.
do a little more research on pseudepigraphic writings. you seem to only know very few of them. i've read that "poor quality" argument in some books about apocrypha, but if you read them for yourself, you'll find out that it's just not true.
and i don't know what's the big deal about jerome. btw he said (and luther repeated) that the catholic deuterocanonica are worth reading and educational.
That Luther was awful! He killed about 100,000 peasants! He didn't like ordinary people demanding more rights even though he thought the Catholic church was corrupt! So, I don't like Martin Luther.
Well, I don't understand why you won't accept the prophecies that were fulfilled?
I think we have serious disagreements, we'll never agree on anything on this sort of subject.
I don't know where you are coming from anymore. An outsider to this conversation would think we are deliberately being blind to the other's "facts." You think you are right, I think I am right. I think I have said all I wanted to say now...
I would never ask a Jew why Jesus is not a Rabbi. I wouldn't be happy with his answer. Once a religion is formed, it's always around in some way or form. The Jews will always believe there Genesis-Malachi part of the Bible only. Most Christians believe in the Genesis-Revelation, some add an additional 10 more books. Sects form, new Christian denominations are formed, but they all evolve around the same basic things, they just highlight different issues that are important to them. So what I am saying even if I proved someone wrong, people would still be stuck in that mould, but at the same time would think I am stuck in my mould unwilling to change. An outsider seeing this we make up his mind on what is right or wrong... you or me? Or he might think none of us right! And that explains the new sect here and there... There's more and more all the time. Anglican non-gays, Anglican gays for instance. -
LittleToe
I love the KJV (AV), but I love a lot of other things, too.
It's the translation I predominantly use, and I meet plenty of the AV-only crowd, but I know few people who wouldn't look at another translation.
Ironically many of the AV-only crowd sing metrical Psalms. If that isn't a rehashing of the original translation work, I don't know what is!I'm not adverse to using any, of the dozens of translations I possess.