I have other sheep

by IP_SEC 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  IP_SEC

  I have other sheep.

  John 10:16 is one of those overused scriptures that seem to prove the dual destiny doctrine.

  (John 10:16) 16 ?And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

  The idea is that there is a little flock (the anointed/144000/FDS) and the other sheep. (those with the earthly hope)

  Is this an accurate interpretation of Jesus words or a verse grossly taken out of context?

  Who was Jesus addressing?

  Jesus in Chapter 9 had just healed a man born blind. When the man confessed this to the Pharisees he was thrown out of the synagogue. (Disfellowshipped) This caused Jesus to search the man out and give him the opportunity to be his follower. When the Pharisees find out they ask Jesus: ?We are not blind also, are we? Chapter 10 is Jesus? reply to the Pharisees.

  He calls himself the fine shepherd and likens himself to the door to the sheep?s pen. He says the Pharisees are like the, hired men who would flee from a wolf instead of protect the sheep, stranger, and thief who harm the sheep. Who are the sheep?

  An account at Matthew 15 sheds light on this. A Sidonian woman asks Christ help in healing her daughter. Jesus response?

  (Matthew 15:24) 24 In answer he said: ?I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.?

  Clearly then the sheep to which Jesus was referring in John are the Jews, why else would he have called the Pharisees thieves and hired men? So who then would be the other sheep not of this fold in verse 16? Everyone else. The gentiles. They too would listen to his voice and become one flock under one shepherd.

  This is further seen be the response of the Jews to what Jesus said.

  (John 10:19-21) 19 Again a division resulted among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them were saying: ?He has a demon and is mad. Why do YOU listen to him?? 21 Others would say: ?These are not the sayings of a demonized man. A demon cannot open blind people?s eyes, can it??

  To the Pharisees this would have sounded demonic. The Gentiles being in the same flock as the Jews was a ridiculous concept. To others it would remind them of God?s promise to Abram, that all the nations would be blessed by his seed.

  So it would seem to me that the dubs took this one verse completely out of context to fit their 2 destinies doctrine, and elevate the FDS above the other sheep.

  Comments? Forgive if this has been posted before, this just hit me during the WT today.

  IPSec
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  Leolaia

  It is so obvious that the "other sheep" refers to the Gentiles and those in the diaspora that it is amazing that the Society expends so little energy in trying to discount this interpretation.
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  Robert K Stock

  The Mormon answer is the other sheep are people who were living in the Americas when Jesus spoke these words.
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  Leolaia

  Yes, I have heard of that. It is about as arbitrary as the JW use of the passage.
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  Honesty

  Blind guides and spiritual drunkards had to invent 'the other sheep' as any group other than the non-jew gentiles. Another reason I made a swift exit from the synagogue of Satan WTBTS/JW organisation when the puzzle started to fit together.
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  Robert K Stock

  I agree that Mormon theology is just as arbitrary as Witness theology.

  It is important to read the words on the page and use our common sense. If Jesus did talk about other sheep, it must refer to Gentiles.
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  IP_SEC

  They tell us to look at the context when they want to prove something, then they just extract, rip, tear these verses right out when it suits them. This is actually more irritating than any UN scandal or 1975 false prophecy.
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  amused

  You are right on IP_SEC, the other sheep are the gentiles. Read 2nd chapter of Ephesians, particularly verses 11-22. There, Paul describes the gentile christians in similar terms to Jesus description of the other sheep in John.

  I read those scriptures a thousand times and it never clicked until I shed the WT bias with which I had read the bible.
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  IP_SEC

  Holy Crap!

  Eph 2 speaks of a wall that fenced the between the two folds/pens/enclosures. That wall was the Law. Christ removed the wall between the two sheep pens.

  That is excellent. Thanks!
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  Leolaia

  Bear in mind, however, that Matthew and Ephesians belonged to different literary traditions and would not have necessarily used the same metaphors in the same way....but in this case, the concepts indeed appear to be quite close. Evidence within the gospel of John on what is meant by John 10:16 includes the OT model of the passage, namely, Jeremiah 23:2-3, which refers to "the remnant of my flock I myself will gather from all the countries where I have dispersed them, and will bring them back to their pastures", and passages such as John 4:9, 21-24 (concerning the gathering of Jews and Samaritans into one group worshipping the Father in truth), John 7:35 (which alludes to the mission to "our people living scattered among the Greeks" and "teaching the Greeks"), John 12:20 (in which the Greeks seek Jesus), and the universalism in John 3:16 and 12:32. There was also the common intertestamental theme (which itself was based on texts such as Jeremiah 23:2-3) that expected that the twelve tribes would be restored under a Messianic figure (cf. 4 Ezra 13:37-40; Testament of Benjamin 9:2), ruled by the twelve sons of Jacob (Testament of Judah 25:2), and brought into a new unity: "And you shall be one people of the Lord, with one language" (25:3; cf. John 10:16: "And there will be only one flock and one shepherd", 17:22: "...that they may be one as we are one"). Under the Christian concept of the church as "Israel", the Jewish belief regarding the in-gathering of the twelve tribes was reinterpreted as relating to the church (cf. Revelation 7:4-8). What is amazing in all this is that the Society takes a verse in John referring to the unity of the church (drawing together sheep from different folds into "one flock") as primary support for a two-destiny doctrine.