I have other sheep

by IP_SEC 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

IP_SEC

Matthew and Ephesians belonged to different literary traditions and would not have necessarily used the same metaphors in the same way

I'm very new to actually looking at the bible from a scholarly point of view, so bear with me :)
Would belonging to different literary traditions mean that for example the metaphors in Matt would have no bearing on Ephs? Like the writer of Ephs wouldn?t have read john 10:16? Sorry?
I've been very impressed with your posts Leolaia. Esp. showing that early Christians at least read the apocrypha, like the link between Jude and 1Enoch. I find this fascinating
Where do you get your extra canon refs? Do you own them? Web?
Thanks
Midget-Sasquatch

What is amazing in all this is that the Society takes a verse in John referring to the unity of the church (drawing together sheep from different folds into "one flock") as primary support for a two-destiny doctrine.

I don't know why many jws can't see this. Like their constant harping of a heavenly hope and and earthly hope when Ephesians 4:4-5 clearly says being called to one hope.
Edit: Ooops....had to correct the scripture reference...never did form a longing for memorizing verse numbers :)
Leolaia

Would belonging to different literary traditions mean that for example the metaphors in Matt would have no bearing on Ephs?

No, not at all. What I mean is that there is a greater chance that metaphors have different applications or are put to slightly different uses when we look outside a particular literary stream or strata. The Fourth Gospel and the synoptic tradition have long been recognized to derive from very different streams and differ in all sorts of respects (e.g. metaphors which are applied to the kingdom of God in the synoptics are applied to Jesus himself in John). Of course, they still have much in common -- so material in Matthew may well still bear on ideas in John. What I wanted to mention was data within John itself or in the OT sources of John that bear on the verse's interpretation. Cognate ideas in Matthew, Ephesians, and for that matter, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, are also valuable. The interesting thing about Ephesians is that of the Pauline and sub-Pauline corpus, it stands the closest to John than any other of the epistles.
Like the writer of Ephs wouldn?t have read john 10:16?
The Fourth Gospel likely took literary shape in the 90s (with later additions and redactions), and Ephesians is either contemporary with it or was written a little earlier. The only epistle or homily in the NT that shows direct acquaintance with the narrative gospel tradition is 2 Peter. Critical opinion is usually that the author of Ephesians is not directly dependence on John but "was a Paulinist who breathed in the atmosphere in which the Johannine literature afterwards took shape" (as Moffatt puts it).
Where do you get your extra canon refs? Do you own them? Web?
I have a pretty good library. I read the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha a lot, and so I often go hunting in the books for the references (as I did in my last post). But there are also commentaries and reference works that help especially.
M.J.

Great topic!
Just want to add that I read about yet another church which considers itself the "one true church" and interprets the "other sheep" as applying to itself.
Aside from the Jews and the Gentiles who became members of the Church of Christ in the first century, is there another group of people who would also be included in the fold or the Church of Christ but not during the time of the Apostles?
There are other sheep of Christ who have been called, but they were not called during the time of the Apostles. According to the pronouncement of our Lord Jesus Christ, He would also bring them and, in the future, there would be one flock or Church of Christ.
"I have other sheep too. They are not in this flock here. I must lead them also. They will listen to my voice. In the future there will be one flock and one shepherd." (Jn. 10:16 Easy-to-Read Version)
These sheep of Christ would also be included in the flock or Church of Christ. They are not in the flock that was in existence then during the time of Christ, but, in a future time, they would be called to become one flock. (Mankind?s Last Hope for Salvation, Iglesia ni Cristo publication, 2001)
Sheri

Why have the "little flock" only decreased by 228 in the last 17 years when their number was sealed in 1935? Per the Revelation Book page 125 in 1987 there were only 8,808 who partook of the Memorial emblems and per the Feb. 1, 2005 WT the 2004 figures show 8,570 partook at the Memorial. How old who those sealed as part of the 144,000 in 1935 be today, since it has been 69 years since that faithful day when Rutherford shed new light of the Great Crowd get to stay on earth. Even if the average age was 20 years old in 1935 they would be going on 90 years young. It would seem the older this little flock gets the more would be going to heaven, but the figures just don't support this.
I wonder when will we be having New Light on why the figures are not going down as fast as in the past, just taking 1987 figures from 1992 (8683) in 5 years a drop of 125, but since 1992 (12 years) only 113 drop in the count,of course couldnt all being replaced, or maybe so.
Good post on the other sheep!
Sheri
IP_SEC

Too this is an example of how they take a word or phrase from the bible and create a proper name out of it.
Rev 7, 19: a great crowd
Dubspeak The Great Crowd
Rev 7, 14 a hundred and forty-four thousand
Dubspeak The 144000
Luke 12 little flock
Dubspeak The Little Flock
John 10:16 other sheep
Dubspeak The Other Sheep
Mat 24:45 the faithful & discreet slave
Dubspeak The Faithful & Discreet Slave
Isnt it a little misleading to take simple discriptions and turn them in to proper names?
Any others that I missed.
Englishman

Thanks, IP_Sec!
I didn't know that.
Englishman.
Qcmbr

OO can't resist
I have just read some posts here about lost sheep that is as bad as some of the JW stuff..!!
Just to list of some scriptures:
(
New Testament | John 1 : 30 - 31 )- John the Baptist - Point Jesus to be made manifest to Israel.
30
This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
(
New Testament | Matthew 19 : 28 )- Israel is much more than the tribe of Judah
28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(
New Testament | Luke 2 : 31 - 32 ) - Gentiles are not Israel (the people)
31
Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
(
New Testament | Romans 9 : 4 - 6 ) - It is possible to be adopted into Israel
4
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(
New Testament | Hebrews 8 : 8 - 9 ) - Again more than just Jews
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
(
New Testament | Matthew 10 : 5 - 6 ) - Preaching was initially to Israel
5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(
New Testament | Matthew 15 : 24 ) - Jesus' mission not to Gentiles
24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
(
New Testament | John 10 : 16 ) - Surely all Israel have the same promise - not just Judah?
6 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
..so after all that - so what if the LDS claim to have a book by other Israelites?? - what we should all be looking for / expecting is many records of Jesus appearing to many Israelite remnants..
AK - Jeff

Sheri said;
I wonder when will we be having New Light on why the figures are not going down as fast as in the past, just taking 1987 figures from 1992 (8683) in 5 years a drop of 125, but since 1992 (12 years) only 113 drop in the count,of course couldnt all being replaced, or maybe so.
Sheri - this was one of my primes in leaving - I went to the Berkeley Mortality Tables and did an extensive year-by-year calc using the memorial partakers in 1941 down to today. [I used '41 since after the Rutherford shake down of the 30's the number had finally settled in to a steady group of heavenly proclaimers].
Anyway - point is that at this time it would be very likely that if the group that partook in 1941 was annually decreased by age-year that fewer than 1500 would remain. And that number by 2005 would be falling by 10 or more percent annually. That obviously is not happening is it?
This convinced me to look deeper into what I had accepted for 40 years as 'truth'. 607 was my first search on the web - and of course no one with academic credentials ever accepted 607 as correct - so out I came with time and knowledge.
Jesus was right - "the truth will set you free".
I think you are right - they will have to try and find a way and cover their a$$es soon on this one - but maybe the plate is just too full with all the covering up they are doing on other fronts. Besides - maybe they don't wish to call attention to it too much. That might be counterproductive to the cause.
just my opinion
Jeff
Pole

The biggest problem I've always had with the FDS, little flock and other sheep doctrines was that the Brooklyn gerontocrats take such passages and apply them to themselves or to the witnesses worldwide. Then they claim that since they've realized they're the little flock and the FDS class, the other sheep should now believe in all their other explanations.

Few witnesses ever get to think about the utter arbitrarines, the vanity and the inverifiable character of their position. Few witnesses ever get to hear a different interpretation of the same passages. Since they live in a spiritual paradise, there's no need to eat from the table of the demons. If you reapeat the same lie a thousand times to the same group of people, at least some people will start believing it.

As Farkel says they're all "bible-based" lies.

Pole

I have other sheep

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